Robert Cialdini  5:17  

I’m gonna need to go to your question in reverse order. Talk about how I got there, and then what I got. I initially began to study the principles of persuasion and influence, partially out of a need for self defense because I was this patsy. I was always being taken in. But also because of the curiosity, the intellectual inquiry involved in studying what was going on. And I began to do that as a behavioral scientist studying how you make a message, the very same message more effective by changing various features of it. I was doing that in my laboratory with college students as my subjects, and I recognized that I was missing something very important by staying located in my lab on a college camp. And that was the power of these techniques that I was investigating to make a difference in the world around us. The world we live in where we’re fighting the influence wars all the time. So I began to answer ads for trainees in the most successful influence profession of our society. 

I began to answer ads for salespeople. I learned how to sell automobiles, from a lock`, insurance, from an office, portrait photography, over the phone, vacuum cleaners, door to door, that sort of thing. But I also infiltrated charity organizations. What do the fundraisers do to get us to say yes. I did the same thing with corporate recruiters. How did they get somebody who’s doing well in a particular job, otherwise they wouldn’t be a target for recruitment to throw that away and decide to roll the dice on a next job? What did they say? So I looked at all of these training programs, and across the widest range of them, I only counted six universal principles of influence that were being used in common. Wherever people were successful at getting others to say yes. I mean, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of tactics, but I thought they could be categorized in terms of one or another of the six universal principles of influence. And here they are. 

The first is reciprocity. People prefer to say yes to those who’ve previously done something for them. For example, there’s a study that shows that if people come into a candy store and they’re given a sample piece of chocolate, they become 42% more likely to purchase something from the person who has given them from the store. Second is liking. People prefer to say yes to those they like. For example, those who identify their commonalities, their similarities with them. There was a study of negotiators, and found that there was a drop in deadlocks between negotiators by 67%,  if before the negotiation, the two individual traded some information about themselves in which they could find a similarity or a commonality. “Oh, you’re a runner. I’m a runner”, “you’re a firstborn child. I’m a firstborn child”, that kind of thing. It wasn’t just exchanging information and humanizing the other person. It was finding parallels that caused people to like the other person and give one another grace than in the negotiation. 

A third is the principle of social proof. The one that says people prefer to follow the evidence of what a lot of other people just like them are doing. There’s a lovely study in Beijing, which shows you the cross cultural reach of this. Restaurant owners were able to significantly increase the likelihood that their patrons would choose particular items from the menu by just putting a little asterisk next to those items. That said, this is one of our most popular dishes. And each one immediately became 13% to 20% more popular. Because people follow the lead of what others like them, that situation had been doing. 

A fourth example is authority. People say yes to those who can claim support with evidence of what the authority, experts are saying they should do. There’s a kind of harrowing study actually, that was done at a university where students were asked to give their opinion on some difficult economic financial choices while they were hooked up to brain imaging equipment. If they were just given those choices, the areas of the brain that became activated were those associated with critical thinking. They were judging the quality of the problem and the various solutions to it in an evaluative way. What if they were told ahead of time that a distinguished economist there at the university had recommended certain answers to these problems. The critical thinking activity, their brain, flatline. They just accepted because in a story had given them the direction on a difficult problem. 

Another principle is people say yes to those who can show how what they’re asking someone to do is consistent with an existing commitment that person has already made. There was a study in the UK where there’s a problem of people who don’t appear for their medical appointments. And they were able to reduce that percentage by 18% by doing a small thing different at the end of the previous appointment. You know how at the end of every doctor’s or dentist appointment, we get a little card that has a date and time of our next appointment scheduled for us.

Preston Pysh  11:38  

Yes, absolutely.

Robert Cialdini  11:40  

This study, the reception gave the patient a blank card and asked the patient to fill in the date and time of the next appointment, which dropped no shows. They wanted to be consistent with something that they had done themselves. Think about if the receptionist essentially gives you a date and time on you. Of course, you’ve agreed to it but not in an active, dramatic way by writing it down yourself. And the research shows people live up to what they write down. 

And then the last of these principles is scarcity. People say yes to those who show them that the opportunity they’re recommending is scarce or rare or dwindling in availability. There’s a sample from the Bose Acoustics Corporation that were advertising a new product, the Bose wave music system and they were disappointed in the response. And then they put five different words at the top of the very same ad and it caused a skyrocket of purchasing. Five words were “hear, what you’ve been missing”. You are missing it. There are unique features. There are lofty. Being foregone. Don’t want to miss those unique opportunity. 

So those are the principles now, to add this “pre-suasive” component, the new book. I used to say to people, if you build one or another of these principles into your message, you’ll find that you’ll get a significant movement in the direction of your message because those principles typically steer people in correct directions. Now, what I say is not only should you address those concepts, you should address them in the moment before you deliver your message. That way your audience will become attuned to the principles before they encounter them in your message, making the principles even more effective.

Preston Pysh  13:43  

So it’s almost like a tuning mechanism for the message that’s about to be delivered like you’d see before a concert or something like that.

Robert Cialdini  13:51  

Exactly right. You’re readying people for the strength of your message that you think will make them most happy with the choice of that message, which will be why is this for them is a reason for choosing your message? Is it social proof? Is it an authority? Is it scarcity? Whatever it is. If you activate that concept before you ever deliver your message that embodies scarcity or social proof, or whatever, they will have become, as you say, attuned to it, receptive to it.

Stig Brodersen  14:29  

In the book, you mentioned the example of if you’re exposed to this niche *inaudible* German music, you’re more inclined to buy German wine. Is that the same type of example you’re referring to here?

Robert Cialdini  14:39  

This is and it is. That’s really the bull’s eye question, because there was a study that showed that if a wine store manager was playing German music when people came into the store, they were more likely to buy German vintages. If the manager was playing French music, you were more likely to buy French because their mindset had been altered toward German things or French things. And now they were more attuned to, they were more receptive to the information on the shelves about German or French wine depending on what music had been playing.

Preston Pysh  15:22  

So Dr. Cialdini, in your new book, you bring up Daniel Kahneman. Stig and I are really big fans of Dr. Kahneman’s work with his book, “Thinking Fast and Slow”. But in the book, you say that you were attending a conference or something like that, or you heard him say that the one thing that most people are unaware of, is this thing. Can you describe this and tell our audience about this event where you heard what he said?

Robert Cialdini  15:48  

Actually, I read this in an online site that asked a variety of experts the following question, “if there’s one thing that people don’t recognize that you think would help them better navigate their lives, what would it be?” And Daniel Kahneman said, nothing is as important as you think it is, while you are thinking about it. In other words, as soon as you begin focusing on something or thinking about it, like German music or German thing. Now, things that are related to that become more important to you. German wine now becomes more important. So, you would think that what Daniel Kahneman would say, would be something that won him the Nobel Prize in Economics a while ago, which is about prospect theory. That when you’re uncertain, you are more compelled by information about how to avoid losses than information about how to obtain gain. He didn’t say the thing that won him the Nobel Prize. He said this other thing that he called the focusing illusion, that nothing is as important as you think it is. While you’re thinking about it, that means that a communicator can get you to elevate the priority of anything that he or she wants by giving you access to that concept, making you focus or think about that concept. Before they send the message where that concept is the central element, you now become more receptive too.

Preston Pysh  17:41  

Can you give our audience an example of what it is that you’re describing here? So you can add some significance to the underlying meaning of this because this is such a phenomenal idea that I read in your book. So I really want you to describe this for our audience.

Robert Cialdini  17:54  

Here’s my example that I think best allows us to understand what’s going on. This study was done by an online furniture store. And they sent half of their visitors to their site to a landing page that had fluffy cloud depicted in the background wallpaper. The other half were sent to a landing page that had coin, money depicted in the background only. Those who were sent randomly to the landing page with fluffy cloud, now rated comfort as the more important feature for them to decide when buying furniture. They then searched the site for features related to comfort and ultimately preferred to purchase more comfortable furniture because fluffy cloud put them in mind of comfort, of soft. Now, those people who were sent to the site with coin on the land page, rated price as the most important feature of what they are going to use to determine what kind of furniture to purchase. They then searched the site for cost related features, and they ultimately preferred inexpensive furniture. So, wherever they were channeled in their attention initially, the clouds or coin directed them in the subsequent information to prioritize information about comfort or cost. And here’s the thing about this, that I think is especially worth recognizing when they were asked afterward. If they thought the clouds or the coin, at in any way influenced their choice, they laughed. They said, of course not. They never recognized that this filthy process had run under their radar and channeled them the direction of the initial concept of comfort or cost. 

Stig Brodersen  20:19  

Wow, amazing. Let’s shift gears here a bit. I’m really looking forward to asking you this question, Dr. Cialdini because we know that billionaire Charlie Munger is a really big fan of your work. And he hasn’t been shy about saying that in public either. In your new book, you talked about how you received a gift from Buffett and Munger by becoming a shareholder of Berkshire Hathaway. Could you tell our audience a neat story about this relationship?

Robert Cialdini  20:46  

Yes, I was sitting in my office, went to the mailbox and got an envelope. A big envelope and it came from Berkshire Hathaway. Of course I had heard of Berkshire Hathaway. Everyone had it by that time. This was about 15 years ago. When I opened it, there was a share of Berkshire stock. The letter from Charlie saying, “this is my way of thanks. Warren and I have read your book. We’ve made hundreds of millions of dollars. This is our way of saying thanks”. Now here’s what that gift has provided me. I’m now a shareholder, and I’ve since bought additional chairs. But that first chair allowed me access to the Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders Report that occurs at the end of every year, and access to the Shareholders Meeting, where I’ve been able to examine or observe, let’s say, the financial deals of those two. And which are, of course, spectacular. But here’s what else I’ve been able to observe. Your skill as communicator. I’ve been getting their Shareholder Reports for 15 to 18 years now. And I’ve noticed something that Warren Buffett does that I’ve never seen any other CEO do. On the first page, or two, that report begins by telling us about a mistake Berkshire made, specially he says, that I made this past year. It’s so disarming. I’ve read it 15 times. And I’m disarmed every time. I say to myself, wow, these guys are great. And I’ve listened differently now. I process the next information differently than before.

Preston Pysh  22:50  

The anchoring to the initial foundation of “hey, here’s a mistake”. And then “here’s how I made $10 billion after that mistake”.

Robert Cialdini  23:00  

And the other thing about it is it tells you, not only is he aware of the mistakes. He’s now going to go and fix it. You get all this confidence in the next thing that he’s going to say.

Stig Brodersen  23:12  

It’s truly amazing. And the thing you come up with a specific example, I think it’s his 50th annual letter. He’s talking about, “now, I’m going to tell you as I would tell someone in my family, why Berkshire Hathaway might be a good investment in the next 50 years”. And I remember reading that too. I didn’t think about like you did. When I read about it, I was like, “okay, so I’m family now”. I mean, now really getting the good stuff. And you’re right, it creates so much trust.

Robert Cialdini  23:41  

Yes. And this is all before he lays out the case for the strength of Berkshire into the future. He sets the frame.

Preston Pysh  23:54  

It’s totally phenomenal. I’m really glad that you address this in the new book because I was always curious what your relationship might have been with Charlie. I mean, to be honest with you, that’s why we read your first book is because we go and we read all these different books of billionaires, say, were the most influential things that they’ve read. And your book was literally at the top of the list for Charlie Munger. And that’s kind of how we found out about you in the first place. But it’s really neat to hear the story of like how some of that went down. Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Robert Cialdini  24:22  

Well, it’s not one that I’ve shared in a public forum before, but your question opened up the answer. 

Stig Brodersen  24:29  

Wow. Thank you for saying that.

Preston Pysh  24:32  

Now, I’m curious, have you gone out to a meeting before?

Robert Cialdini  24:35  

I’ve always attended the meetings ever since I’ve had a ticket to go. As long as you’re a shareholder, you’re invited. And I had one share for a long time. 

Preston Pysh  24:44  

Well, Stig and I go each year, so hopefully, we get a chance to shake hands. 

Robert Cialdini  24:48  

Oh, that would be great

Preston Pysh  24:48  

All right. So I have a question that I’m really dying to ask you. Because after reading your first book, and your second book, you bring up all these different studies for why you put these opinions out there on what influence is and isn’t. And after studying all this research and amounts of data, I have to ask you, what do you think is the most powerful principle of the six? And what would you say the cases that kind of goes with that if you can tie it together?

Robert Cialdini  25:18  

Here’s what I would say that the most powerful principle is the one that’s inherent in the situation that we encounter. If we have genuine authority to apply, that’s the one to use there. If we have genuine scarcity, use that one. If we have a genuine social proof, that’s the one to use. But here’s what I’m going to say to be more responsive to your question. Social proof is the one that’s trending right now. Not because somehow, social proof has become more potent in human consciousness as a reason to move. It’s because it’s become more available than ever before. We now have access to evidence about what a lot of other people just like us are doing or have been doing because we’ve got networks of people who are of similar mind. They can be in user groups, they can be in interest groups, they can be on review sites of various kinds, tripadvisor, Amazon, and so on. We can get access to that in a way that we never had before. And that’s where a lot of the power is going right now to the social proof in principle, just because that information is so easy to obtain. I just saw a report in a journal where somebody showed in a survey that 97% of online buyers check product review before they buy. We can’t get 97% of people to believe that the world is wrong. But 97% check online reviews of people who’ve tried it like them. That’s how powerful this principle is, and how available it is.

Preston Pysh  27:26  

That is a really, really insightful answer to that question. I really appreciate that. Because, I mean, you’re exactly right. You can’t look at anything on the internet, without some type of quantifiable number being below it or beside it. Basically justifying its clickability. You know what I mean? 

Robert Cialdini  27:43  

And there are even shortcuts to it, star rating. I don’t even have to read the review. I can just look at how many have five stars.

Stig Brodersen  27:52  

Yeah, it’s amazing how we are influenced by other people and not always thinking for ourselves. Okay, so this is the final question I have for you, Dr. Cialdini. As the author of “Influence and Persuasion”, I can’t think of no one, I would rather ask this question. Which book has had the most significant influence in your life and how you look at the world?

Robert Cialdini  28:16  

I’m gonna give you two answers. One is a general answer and one having to do with investing. The general answer is Aristotle’s “Rhetoric”. When I was in high school, it was assigned in a class. I think it was at Speech. In those days, persuasion was about orators or orating or Aristotle. He provided the first systematic account I ever encountered on the topic of persuasion. How you move an audience. Now it wasn’t a scientific account. But it was a systematic, logical derivation of recommendation from his thinking and his experience. That just blew me away. And then within the realm of investing, this isn’t by virtue of the rule for reciprocity. But for me, it’s “Poor Charlie’s Almanack”, in which they detail the wisdom of Charlie Munger in life, and then turning that into implications for investing. That extraordinarily powerful source of information.

Preston Pysh  29:38  

We’re huge Charlie Munger fans and I think once you go to a meeting and you hear how intelligent he is. I mean, it’s almost like he’s from a different planet.

Robert Cialdini  29:49  

He’s breaking the ceiling. So with this principle that they use of mentioning a weakness before the mention of strength to establish their credibility, so people now believe their strength. Why do they do this? And we don’t see this in any other annual reports. Here’s my answer. They read psychology books in their spare time.

Preston Pysh  30:13  

I think it’s that. I think they genuinely really don’t have a big ego. I think that they’re just so well read. And they understand how things work, just because they’ve read so much. But oh, I could go on and on about how just impressive all that is. And this is just phenomenal to have you on our show to be talking to you is just indescribable, to be quite honest with you. 

So Dr. Cialdini, we’ve got to wrap things up. But thank you so much. And I sincerely mean this. Thank you so much for coming on our show. This meant so much to Stig and I because we really are just enormous fans of your work. And you have had such a profound impact on our lives and in so many other people’s lives with your writing. So thank you, and we just really appreciate it.

Robert Cialdini  30:57  

Well, Preston and Stig, thank you for asking the question that allowed me to get to the heart of the material. I don’t always get there. They were great questions.

Preston Pysh  31:07  

So Dr. Cialdini, if our audience wants to learn more about you or some of your books, we’re going to have your books listed in our show notes. But if our audience wants to learn more about you, where can they go, and where can they look up?

Robert Cialdini  31:17  

Well, we have a website influenceatwork.com. And there they can get information about what we do in terms of speaking and training, as well as the books that we have to offer.

Preston Pysh  31:34  

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Stig Brodersen  31:37  

Guys, that was all we had for this week’s episode. We’ll see each other again next week.

Preston Pysh  31:43  

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