[00:02:37] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So not a lot of checks, right? So by early 2017 ish, I started reading up more about Bitcoin. Cause you know, our liberal was, they were trying to get IBM’s DNA program into Kaduna state, which is where he was working at the time for the government. And it was like, yeah, you know, do you have any insights into blockchain or Bitcoin and things like that?

[00:02:55] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And I was like, no, because for some more context in 2013, he had this obscure video from YouTube. He brought back about Bitcoin and he was really into it at the time. But honestly, I was 14. So really didn’t care about Bitcoin or anything like that. Didn’t understand what I was. Watching at the time. So by 2017 ish, we started talking a lot more about it, started reading articles, but the problem was all the articles at that time was just too technical, to be honest with you.

[00:03:20] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And I had no technical background. So as far as I was concerned, it was just going through my eyes and I forget everything I learned. So by like, see halfway through that year in 2017, I was like, okay. I really want to understand this and maybe give it a shot since I have all this time before college, you know, to end up going, you know, doing more frequent work.

[00:03:38] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So at the time I was like, okay, I should probably know some stuff about computing and things like that. So I kind of walked through the whole rabbit hole of what’s a computer programming, things like that. And then by the end of the year, I was just hooked on it, to be honest, like that’s all I was doing.

[00:03:52] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Anything I could get my hands on textbooks, articles, videos, everything. And then my 2018, I started teaching myself how to code. So by that time I started understanding a lot more of the material. And then by like 2019, I started contributing to Bitcoin core. Funny enough, cause I saw a pull request that was merged by Tim Akimbo, who was also another Nigerian Bitcoin core contributor.

[00:04:12] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I think probably the first on the content, arguably. So that for me, I was like, Oh, wow. So that is possible. I had no idea you could actually contribute on that level. So I did that and then it got merged in 2020 and since then, honestly, it’s just been like further entrenched into both, you know, the programming side as well as Bitcoin.

[00:04:29] Preston Pysh: What was the thing that really hooked you though? When you were like, you said that, what was it, mid 2017, 2018 that you just kind of got the bug and you really went deep. What was it that caused that for you?

[00:04:42] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, honestly, I don’t really have a huge interest in like money or maybe have any sort of predisposition towards like a philosophical reason for why Bitcoin is so novel or interesting or beneficial to humanity initially just seemed like cool tech to me.

[00:04:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I felt it was very interesting that money could be used in this way, where it’s like fully digital, it’s you know, global instant, all that kind of stuff. I mean, obviously at the time there was no lightning network, so it was really more academic paper. So for me, it was really what hooked me was on the programming side, it was just the ability to think about things and then actually bring them into life.

[00:05:19] Abubakar Nur Khalil: For me, it felt like an incredible superpower. And then coupled that with Bitcoin, it was like, it felt like I was part of this underground movement of really a lot of very intelligent people around the world. So I felt as much as possible, I need to not only contribute to this, but know as much as I can to also kind of equip myself because further down the line, I started actually using Bitcoin before I had a bank account.

[00:05:42] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, I, any, all information was very useful to actually using it on the ground. So it was more practical as well as just the ability to actually create things that are actually useful.

[00:05:53] Preston Pysh: You had mentioned that you were very good at math. Did you find that that helped in any kind of way as you were looking at it?

[00:06:02] Preston Pysh: Or did you just have more of an inclination for coding and wanting to get good at coding that kind of led you there?

[00:06:09] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Yeah, definitely. And I think what was interesting on the math side, because generally there, you know, arguably you can code without necessarily having this, Like large depth of knowledge of mathematics, even at a fundamental level.

[00:06:21] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But for me, I’m the type of person that just goes ahead. Things that have like an itch pretty much. So for me on the math side, I don’t like programming was more. So I like to dig deep into foundations on fundamentals. Like if I can’t reason my way through something as far as I’m concerned, I don’t know what it is or understand it.

[00:06:39] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that’s what the core motivation is for me to really drill deep and try to understand things from that kind of first principles standpoint.

[00:06:46] Preston Pysh: Yeah. Yeah. So, you’re well versed on everything happening inside of Africa, particularly with Nigeria, help the Western listener. Cause that’s what pretty much dominates the, the listenership of our show.

[00:07:01] Preston Pysh: Help them understand from your perspective. What does things look like on the ground in Africa with respect to Bitcoin, Bitcoin development, regulations, et cetera?

[00:07:12] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Oof, a ton. So, first thing, context is very important. So, Africa, the way to look at it is as the entire continent of a billion people, thousands of languages, 54 countries, over 30 currencies across.

[00:07:25] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And, All of these different jurisdictions within Africa, the sentiment that they have and really the set of, I see maybe regulation is it typically mimics kind of the evolution of how Bitcoin is introduced into that country. So if you take a country like Nigeria, for example. Arguably West Africa as well as East Africa to a lesser extent, you know, South Africa have been kind of at the forefront of Bitcoin if you track all the way from like 2017 to date.

[00:07:53] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So in 2017, when a lot of this was happening was kind of around at the same time of like the bull run. A lot of scams came into Niger and really Africa as a whole. So like. And the big connects, all that kind of stuff. So a lot of people were under the impression that they owned Bitcoin, but they didn’t necessarily because a lot of these people were just scamming them off and saying, I’ll buy Bitcoin for you.

[00:08:14] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And then when the dust settled after the whole bull run, a lot of people realized, wait a minute, I actually don’t have any Bitcoin. A lot of people, obviously some went to jail, some fled or things like that. So there Bitcoin because. From the get go, people weren’t necessarily familiar with this concept of full digital money, even though, you know, arguably all fiat is digital as well as even the Nara, for example.

[00:08:35] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But that concept of it being just digitally native as well as you can’t really physically touch was already a bad taste for a lot of people. So couple that with the scam that was introduced. A lot of people just felt averse to Bitcoin naturally. So by like 2018, we started seeing a lot more companies come out of the African space, specifically, you know, buy coins on a bunch of other exchanges.

[00:08:54] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And really for them, it was providing Nigerians the ability to off and on ramp. So a lot of those companies in the early days were pretty much just exchanges. So by like 2019 ish, 2020, the government started understanding, okay. This is something that we probably need to take a look at. And after a while they realized, okay, if this is likely going to challenge already the existing currency, that was kind of feeling at that time, really, when it comes to the exchange rate on the forex side, then something I would probably need to be ahead of.

[00:09:24] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So they decided to bring out, you know, the, the, which is the first CVDC in Africa. And, well, some argue, this is, I can’t really see what the motivations are behind the CBN’s move, but did it push to ban Bitcoin outright, or at the time they claimed it was for reasons around anti money laundering, KYC, AML, things like that?

[00:09:45] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And then some people speculate that the real reason was to stop any sort of propagation of Bitcoin so that the e nero will take up, will actually take off. But then the problem is, I would argue, having documented this extensively and being familiar with the situation is, I firmly believe if you were to attribute the growth of the P2P market, the Bitcoin P2P market in Nigeria, as well as the actual share adoption levels that we’ve seen over the last few years to one entity, it would likely be the Nigerian government, ironically.

[00:10:15] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Because that ban set in motion a lot of things. One is, it made people realize that, okay, now that banks can directly tie crypto transactions to some of these fintechs that were operating, then it means the only option is P2P. So it naturally forced people to go hard into P2P. And then the problem was, It’s very, very difficult for them to stifle P2P without disrupting the entire value chain or, you know, for, for currency exchanges and things like that.

[00:10:40] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So instead, all they did was the ban. They released the e mail, which till this day, I’ve never seen anyone use the e mail on the ground. I’ve never seen anyone accept it. I downloaded the wallet and then it required me to read KYC, even though I have a bank account in Asia. So I was like, you know what?

[00:10:52] Abubakar Nur Khalil: This, this is not worth it. So a lot of people just continued using Bitcoin. And as soon as people caught up to the idea that, okay, this is actual money that works for us, this is not a failing currency. This is not permissioned because a huge thing for us here in Nigeria is a lot of the access that we have to money in general and just the global financial system is permissioned.

[00:11:11] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And the truth is the majority of the time, we’re not even allowed on these platforms, so we already don’t have access. So even the idea of like spending things through credit cards and all of that, typically we have to jump through different hoops or different fintechs to kind of get access to that. But with Bitcoin it was like instant, instant money at that time since Bitcoin lightning was already a thing at the time.

[00:11:29] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So a lot of that resulted in people just seeking out P2P through WhatsApp, Telegram, all kinds of channels. And then by last year, December, the Nigerian government realized, okay, we kind of lost the fight in terms of stuff. So I think P2P, because at this point, Nigeria ranks, I think, top five globally for P2P adoption as well as just overall.

[00:11:48] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But the problem is we’re still not at a state, obviously where, you know, people just spend Bitcoin on a daily, you know, addicts, you know, shops and things like that. But at the same time, they already let the cat out of the bag in terms of what it means for people to actually know the value of Bitcoin and just pursue that individually.

[00:12:05] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So the unique thing about the adoption here in Nigeria and more so across Africa is it’s grassroots fully like the governments or things like that are did not. Put this on the people, which is again, because we really don’t trust the government for a lot of people. So naturally that wouldn’t have even worked.

[00:12:21] Abubakar Nur Khalil: The example being the E Nara. So ironically they did pull off the ban, but then all of us were kind of a bit skeptical because you know, the government is exactly too excited about Bitcoin to begin with. So taking off the ban, yes, I’m more excited about it. Meaning we’ll have, you know, more regulatory clarity, but then.

[00:12:37] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Now fast forward to me, you know, you realize that that was probably for the worst, you should have probably kept the ban, things were a lot easier at the time, because things started happening with, you know, rumors of abductions of people that actually deal with P2P, Bitcoin and things like that, even folks that are doing, you know, currency exchanges and things like that, a lot of them are shut down.

[00:12:56] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Binance got shut down. Their execs came to kind of negotiate with the government and then they actually got, well, let’s say they got retained in the country. It’s probably a good way to put it. And I think they still have one executive in Nigeria with like legal proceedings in Abuja, the capital. So a lot of that has been really on the regulatory side.

[00:13:14] Abubakar Nur Khalil: A lot of it has really been activity in Nigeria and some extent, some other parts like the Kenyan government as well, they tend to mimic the central bank of Nigeria as a sentiment in general to kind of regulation. What’s interesting on the positive side is other countries that are starting to see things like Bitcoin mining that positively impact the continent.

[00:13:31] Abubakar Nur Khalil: They’ve started moving towards championing that allowing for that to proliferate. So things like in countries like Ethiopia, for example. I see it kind of varies across where mostly in West Africa is more on the P2P side, kind of like raw Bitcoin markets on the East African side is mostly around the mining side.

[00:13:47] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And I see South Africa has been an interesting kind of middle ground where you have projects like Matrim Corella and for people with phones that don’t, that aren’t smartphones to actually use the lightning network, for example, while still allowing for, you know, Relatively high adoption levels when it comes to like P2P markets and things like that.

[00:14:02] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it kind of varies and that’s, I guess, what the way to see the general overview is with like specifics on nature as well.

[00:14:09] Preston Pysh: Early in your response there in the beginning you were talking about the scams that were stood up. I’m curious I just look at you and I look at how young you are and I I know where I was at when I was your age And I would have totally been sucked into The fringe parts of bitcoin and some maybe some of these scams and things like that.

[00:14:27] Preston Pysh: How are you able to just you know, so Perfectly like align yourself right to the center of this entire movement. I mean, you’re making core contributions, this young kid and not getting sucked into the distractions, right? So like, what would you, how would you say you were able to do that for people that are listening to this?

[00:14:49] Preston Pysh: How, how were you able to just perfectly focus right on what was the most important thing right out of the gate? Cause that’s just so rare.

[00:14:58] Abubakar Nur Khalil: It is, and I think the, the best way I can put it is, the longer you are in this space, the more you tend to see these cycles of no scammers, drifters come in. And the one thing that I always remind myself is, you know, to keep myself grounded is obviously to continue staying humble, continue staying hungry when it comes to like learning and things like that, but more so is taking the examples of those that came before me that no longer exist in this business.

[00:15:22] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Like a good, a good, what would I say, a good ego check to remember that the moment you allow for distraction to take place, whether it’s like, you know, taking yourself as some big Bitcoin influencer or, you know, untouchable or so big. You’re just fleeting. Like the moment that becomes your priority, the moment you prioritize fleeting sentiments, public fleeting sentiments, then you just become as fleeting.

[00:15:45] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, in terms of like the way I look at longevity, all I prioritize is really just being as honest as possible to myself about the reasons why I still work on this, which is that I actually do believe in this. So everything else comes secondary, whether it’s like, you know, the achievements and things like that.

[00:15:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, the priority is. There’s always going to be a lot more work to be done and for the people that have been in the space longer than I have that is still here in the space, if their ego doesn’t drive them and still they still have just as much of a drive to contribute to this that I do, and I feel I have no right really to kind of Go against that and, and decide to put my ego first.

[00:16:18] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that’s kind of how I checked myself and realized like, you know, still don’t know as much, there’s always going to be someone who knows a lot more as it was going to be someone who’s contributing a lot more. So just stay hungry and just do your part pretty much.

[00:16:29] Preston Pysh: So wise, I’m just blown away at your age to be this wise.

[00:16:34] Preston Pysh: When I was in my twenties, I was not, sir. Okay. You had mentioned the payments that are taking place there in Nigeria. I’m assuming this is lightning based, the peer to peer transactions. Do you have any comments on, on lightning versus layer one and how that’s being perceived inside of Africa?

[00:16:51] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:16:51] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And so just to take it back a little bit in, so everything after 20, I say 2022 was when lightning kind of got into the conversation. So prior to that, till date. Majority of the volumes are actually still on, on chain. And if you’re looking at it like a dollar amount, I’d say averaging monthly around like 1, 000 to 10, 000 at the high end.

[00:17:10] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I say retail doesn’t really, it’s not really a big component of the actual volumes on the ground for Africa, especially in places like Nigeria. The majority of the actual volumes is on the B2B side. So these are people that are interacting with you know, wholesalers in China, for example, actual businesses using Bitcoin.

[00:17:27] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So a lot of the retail is really a small percentage versus the actual B2B. Now in terms of where Lightning factors in, it’s more on the retail side, it’s less likely for you to see anyone doing large volumes using the lightning network, obviously, for a variety of, known reasons with aggressive, you know, capacities and limits and things like that.

[00:17:44] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So the majority of the people using lightning tend to be, you know, Either enthusiast or people that are using, you know, consumer wallets, like Bitnok, who actually pioneered the lightning network here in Africa, or maybe strike or some of these other companies. So it’s definitely not as ubiquitous as, you know, on chain payments.

[00:18:04] Preston Pysh: You had mentioned that you saw a lot of the mining impacts within Africa, kind of happening on the East side of, of the continent where you’re at it’s more the payment side, like you’re saying here with a B2B. Would you say that the, just the organic energy production that is there in the East is what’s causing that, that they had maybe over engineered for the energy and there’s not enough demand of why you have cheaper energy costs there that’s attracting the miners, or what’s kind of the dynamic that’s driving that, that you described?

[00:18:37] Abubakar Nur Khalil: A couple. So I think the way to look at it is Africa has been one of those continents that has been hooked on, you know, a lot of promises and attempts at electrification overall, and kind of just the drive for economic development. But what we have to show for it really is just a ton of debt and a lot of underdeveloped and honestly, projects that just didn’t even start to take off and a lot of curtailment.

[00:19:00] Abubakar Nur Khalil: One thing to even take in note is Nigeria actually ranks, I think, I’ll be top five or top seven gas flares in the world, which is not a good reputation to have a lot of that extant energy really has been yearning or some sort of productive means of creating these energy what I say endeavors when it comes to electrification or probably just using that excess energy for economic development in general.

[00:19:22] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I think a lot of it has happened more on the East because I think. Regulation that has been a lot more suitable than in West Africa. And another thing to factor in really is kind of the, what I say, the, the countries themselves, because in West Africa, it’s a lot more politicized to a lot of the energy infrastructure already with some of these large multinationals that are already there.

[00:19:42] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So unless they are convinced that Bitcoin mining is worthwhile, they’ll likely stop any sort of efforts from, from happening. But the good thing with Bitcoin mining is you can co locate to actual renewable sources. So you don’t necessarily have to plug into like a. You know, an oil field where you take advantage of the excess flared gas.

[00:19:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for a lot of the products I see, even these there, majority of them tend to be hydro. And the good thing is a lot of that, those hydro products are actually on the government side. So again, because of the regulation and some of these parts where they’re a lot more friendly or accepting of people coming in to explore these energy opportunities, as well as giving back to the community.

[00:20:18] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Because again, with Bitcoin mining is the only way you could actually bring electrification from day one without necessarily waiting for, you know, contractors or buyers. Because again, you do have a buyer, which is the Bitcoin miners themselves. So for us, Africa has been really, really slow to get up to ground.

[00:20:33] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I mean, I think that the larger operations that we have on the ground is still below like five microwatts compared to all the other parts in East Africa. So I think for us, we’re going to have to meet like halfway when it comes to on the regulation side, obviously expertise too, because it’s a lot of, a lot of the mining here in West Africa is like hobbyist mining, not necessarily on the large level of East Africa, but I think those are the main factors I’ve seen and we’ll likely see a lot more from West Africa. There are a couple of products that I’m excited that will come in soon, but yeah, those are, those are the way I kind of think about both the dichotomy between two.

[00:21:05] Preston Pysh: I’m curious if the ETF approval in the United States added validity from the optics of government Within Africa and how they’re viewing Bitcoin and its longevity and what it actually means moving forward.

[00:21:20] Preston Pysh: Is that something that you’ve seen since the start of this year or has it been mostly ignored and not really talked about?

[00:21:27] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I mean, it has contributed because I think, so again, just to take it back a bit. A lot of the regulation that we see in some African countries, specifically like Nigeria, where, you know, to a certain extent, we also essentially just mirrored a bunch of U. S. agencies like the S. T. C., we also have an S. T. C. down here, so a lot of the laws that do get enacted, whether it’s in Europe through the E. U. or, you know, the U. K. or the U. S., some of that does get distilled into our actual regulatory agencies here in kind of the context that they view this, and especially the lens of so on the ETF side, yes, it did give legitimacy, but at the same time, what it really practically meant for us is yes, there’s a heightened awareness because again, that also tracks with the bull, the bull market again.

[00:22:08] Abubakar Nur Khalil: A lot of them are like, okay, so this Bitcoin thing is still around. Like how do we combat this again? Or, and, or at least for some, since we’re starting to have a few more folks that are a bit more positive, positively minded towards Bitcoin in some of these circles in the government, but at the same time, we still have, we just had our election recently in Nigeria.

[00:22:27] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So this new administration is a lot more proactive than the previous one, but at the same time, the proactiveness isn’t necessarily super positive or negative, it’s just that they’re proactive. So if they’re going to ban something, they’re going to do it really quickly. If they’re going to stop something from happening, they’re going to do it really quickly.

[00:22:42] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And just for context, again, Nigeria, we had the currency issue recently where not only is our currency Insanely being devalued. I think probably 70 percent of the value was lost in the last maybe three years or so. We also had four different Naras in existence like last year or slash, yeah, in the last two years.

[00:22:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So we had the physical notes, which is the old notes and the new notes because they’re transitioning between the two as well as the digital Nara is different as well as the e Nara. So in terms of fungibility to that’s another thing that they look at. So all the attempts from the government side has been trying to protect the Nara versus, you know, the foreign exchange with With the dollar.

[00:23:15] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So again, yes, the ETF did help, but it just made them more aware that, you know, Bitcoin is still around and we need to be like that. Not necessarily that. Oh, you know, Wall Street is comfortable. Well, we might as well be comfortable. That’s definitely not what happened.

[00:23:28] Preston Pysh: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just shining a larger flashlight on the currency, local currency issues.

[00:23:34] Preston Pysh: That’s interesting. When you look across Africa, which country would you put at the top of the list is just being very progressive and embracing Bitcoin and you think is going to be a major hub in the future for future development.

[00:23:50] Abubakar Nur Khalil: This is interesting and it’s going to probably sound contradictory, but I firmly believe Nigeria.

[00:23:55] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Okay. And I’d say the main reasons are kind of twofold. One is just because of the sheer adoption being grassroots will always be at the forefront. Because again, regardless of what the government perception or sentiment is, people are still always going to be buying, selling Bitcoin, developing companies, products, and things like that, and services.

[00:24:15] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And the very fact that Nigeria is still the most mature Bitcoin market in terms of like with adoption numbers product services and things like that, I still feel we would be at the forefront. The only thing I’d say is. Maybe on the government side, it’ll take them a kind of a while compared to other jurisdictions to kind of catch up with the innovation that’s happening.

[00:24:33] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But in terms of practical from the government side, I’d say maybe looking at countries like Ethiopia, because in 2022, they had the, they had the law that allowed for high efficiency computing to actually be legal on the ground, which, you know, to translate that also. Essentially includes Bitcoin mining, because that’s considered under that, which is why it’s the first African country where the government is actually pioneering Bitcoin mining.

[00:24:54] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I say, if you’re looking from the government standpoint, it’s definitely to look at places like Ethiopia or maybe even other African countries with a smaller population, a lot of excess energy and less bureaucracy, really. And on the Nigerian side, if you’re looking at a country like Nigeria, it’s more so on.

[00:25:10] Abubakar Nur Khalil: The bet is on the people rather than the government. So that’s how I’ll break those two in terms of response.

[00:25:15] Preston Pysh: So there’s 213 million people inside of Nigeria for context here in the, in the U S it’s about 300 million. So this is, there’s a huge population inside of Nigeria. There’s 250 different ethnic groups inside of Nigeria, which is mind blowing to me.

[00:25:36] Preston Pysh: Yeah. How does that cultural, the, the, that diversity of, of culture within the country impact Bitcoin development? Does it matter, or is it pretty much across all of these different ethnic groups?

[00:25:49] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Yeah, it’s across, I mean, yeah, Nigeria is very interesting, a lot of reasons, but in terms of those dynamics, they kind of play in a variety of subtle ways.

[00:25:58] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I’d say in terms of either when you look at focus or trade or volumes, they’re kind of. They’re not as uniformly distributed across the country as you might have expected with other parts with maybe less less diversity, but less numbers per se. So I see, if you’re looking at it in terms of distribution, certain parts of Nigeria have a lot more emphasis on the B2B volume side.

[00:26:19] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So around the parts that I am really, a lot of that tends to take that shape where you have a ton of people that don’t necessarily use Bitcoin on a daily, but a lot of folks that are engaged in like wholesale B2B and things like that are using Bitcoin on a daily. Then you have other parts that focus more on the entrepreneurship side.

[00:26:36] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So you’re looking at maybe a Legos, the capital in Abuja and places like that. And what’s interesting is I’ve seen a shift in the dynamics. Yeah. Of, I’d say maybe in the last 18 months where because of the work from, you know, Beatrice builders and some of the bit devs that have been happening and the grassroots movements that have been taking place and also being funded through the geyser, geyser fund is a lot more people in Nigeria specifically are starting to pop up with their own clusters of Bitcoiners.

[00:27:00] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that is also affecting in a positive way, actually the distribution of the activity across, because previously there are only maybe I’d say three hubs, arguably, maybe, you know, why I’m in Kaduna, you know, Abuja, Lagos, and then everywhere else is kind of like roughly around the same, the same level. But I see now it’s very, very different where you have another Bitcoin Core contributor, actually, who’s all the way up in another state up here in the North.

[00:27:23] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I have a bunch of other developers also in the South. So it’s a lot more distributed is getting a lot more evened out, both in terms of the developer focus, the actual the current education on the ground, as well as on the entrepreneurship side, which is why I’m very, very bullish when it comes to Nigeria as a whole, because I’ve seen the dynamics kind of shift irrespective of the differences when it comes to either religion or tribes or things like that.

[00:27:46] Preston Pysh: So I’m going to embarrass you a little bit here. So when I, when I met you, I was just, I was so blown away with the conversation that we had, I was just blown away at your maturity. And so. I’m at this event and I go and I start talking after we were done talking, I go talk to some other people and they’re like, oh yeah, you don’t know him?

[00:28:04] Preston Pysh: And I was like, no, I don’t know who he is. And they’re like, oh yeah, he runs around with people like Jack Dorsey and you know, Jay Z and like all these other people. I was like, get the heck out of here. And they’re like, no, seriously. So these are the rumors that you never hear, like the people, the conversations that people have when you’re not present.

[00:28:23] Preston Pysh: Yeah. So in preparation for the interview, I was trying to confirm some of these things that I had heard. I go to a website called AfroTech, and sure enough, I find out that you’re on the board at Btrust, which is Jay Z and Jack Dorsey’s trust that they’ve set up inside of Africa. There was a 500, I think it was 500 BTC initial seeding of Btrust to, well, I’m going to, I want you to explain what this is.

[00:28:52] Preston Pysh: And how you were select here’s, here’s something else that was in the article. 7, 000 applicants to be on the board. And I think there was, was there just four of you guys selected for the board at Btrust and you’re one of the four. That’s kind of crazy, sir. Go ahead and explain what you guys are trying to do with Btrust.

[00:29:11] Preston Pysh: This blew my mind, but I guess it was after having a conversation with you, kind of obvious that a person like you would be selected. So go ahead and teach us a little bit about Btrust, what the mission is and what you guys have accomplished.

[00:29:23] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Yeah, for sure. I mean, Btrust was very interesting. It came honestly out of nowhere.

[00:29:28] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And that was roughly around, I think, 2021 ish. So just a tweet from Jack, honestly, announcing that he’s looking for board members to run this trust. Trying to increase Bitcoin not only adoption, but like education and just the Bitcoin drive and the development of Bitcoin in Africa and India initially was, was what the two was seeing.

[00:29:46] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And funny enough, it was my older brother who sent me the tweet. He was like, bro, have you seen this? You should apply. I was like, bro, like the hell, like, look at all the OGs applying. Who am I? I just got into this space and he was like, yeah, but worst case scenario, you don’t get it, like there’s no law.

[00:29:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: That’s right. I don’t know. Okay. I, you know, that’s a fair argument. So I did, you know, I applied and then honestly, I I was like, yeah, that’s one of those things you just do. And then like months go by, I totally even forgot about the fact that I applied. And then they got back saying, Oh, I’ve been moved to the next step.

[00:30:14] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And then like, okay, that’s very interesting. So like, you know, I definitely will not make it obviously. So let me just try as much as possible to be honest with the process, document everything, all the responses that I’m giving. So at least even if I don’t make it, I could just make a large article. And people could just read it and see my thoughts.

[00:30:31] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I kept progressing through, you know, had a bunch of responses where you had to write and then obviously all the way up to the interviews and each process, obviously the disbelief kept increasing all the way up to getting the email where I was selected. I was like, okay, this is insane. Maybe I’m getting spammed.

[00:30:47] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So we did all of that. And what was interesting at the time was for me again, documenting was very, very important. So I did end up releasing a whole long ass article about, you know, the process, my thoughts about it. A lot of the things in that piece has been achieved already through Btrust with all the work that we’ve done.

[00:31:05] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So since launch to date, what we’ve managed to do is Set up actual principles for the, for the fund itself. So the idea is just to break it down for people. Btrust is not aimed to venture invest in the Bitcoin space. The idea is for us to be the infrastructure for us to increase Bitcoin development where it’s not as common.

[00:31:25] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So specifically Africa, given the makeup of the board, we’re all Africans on the board. And it’s very straightforward. So the idea is we’re trying to narrow in to have as much necessary machinery as possible to pump out developers, as well as having a streamlined pipeline for them to go all the way from, I don’t know anything about Bitcoin to meaningfully contributing to the Bitcoin space specifically, you know, the North stars Bitcoin core, for example, but every other Bitcoin open source product is kind of like the other that they could spill into from that pipeline.

[00:31:55] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Well, the idea was initially getting a few principles in so that the actual structure of the trust maintains its integrity over time and subsequent board will have to adhere to that. So we did all of that. We set up an ad for entity, got control of the Bitcoin and we started deploying. So what that looks like on the ground is we acquired a program called Gala, which I was one of the co founders, as well as Bernard, Carla and Tim guy who opened the first pull request here in Africa, which was also surreal to get to work with all of them.

[00:32:22] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And what that infrastructure was really in regards to Btrust acquiring Gala was to have the pipeline of creating actual Bitcoin developers, because we had already run for like a year or so, so far, up until the point where it got acquired. And what we were able to successfully do is get people interested in Bitcoin.

[00:32:39] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And then at the far end of the output, because you have different parts of the program, you have an actual Bitcoin developer. So that plugged in perfectly with the mission of Btrust, where we have this machine that’s churning out African developers. And then higher level at the Btrust at the Btrust level, we have grants that we’re giving out to these people, as well as grants that we’re giving out to conferences like the AfroBitcoin conference here in here in Africa, as well as starting to explore other parts of the Bitcoin ecosystem to kind of see, so again Like I said, the initial idea was Africa and India, and now really it’s a case where it’s Africa initially, and then the rest of the global South.

[00:33:15] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So we are dipping our feet into other products in the global South just to get the same infrastructure. But in general, the idea is, you know, managed to get this info going. We’ve managed to provide support for developers, creating developer groups locally around different cities in Africa. We’re providing grants to actual people doing Bitcoin core development, like workers and other grantees, as well as Vlad was working on Bitcoin the Bitcoin development kit.

[00:33:38] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So in general, all that you, what to expect really from Btrust is in the next five to 10 years, the reason why you would have a ton of excellent developers out of Africa will be because of Btrust and at the same time, the aim is for us to sit back into the background of just core infrastructure that allows for this ecosystem to flourish.

[00:33:58] Abubakar Nur Khalil: That’s pretty much it.

[00:33:59] Preston Pysh: Wow. That’s fascinating being around these heavy hitters that are on this board and, and the original founders, what would you say is something that you weren’t expecting that you were just surprised by, or just some core lesson that you learned by interacting with these types of people that, you know, Most people don’t ever have an experience like this.

[00:34:23] Preston Pysh: What was, what would be your one takeaway?

[00:34:25] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I’d see is the ability to re sit down and think through clearly what the objectives are, the problems, and then how you could actually meaningfully kickstart things that would yield results towards that goal. At the end of the day.

[00:34:39] Preston Pysh: It’s the methodology as planning something out long-term.

[00:34:42] Preston Pysh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Okay. So in addition to all of this, you have your own VC firm Recursive Capital, which is also mind blowing. Now, now you’re doing very early seed, seed stage investments. Talk to us about this. First of all, talk to us about the name. Cause I love this name, Recursive Capital.

[00:35:04] Preston Pysh: What, how’d you come up with that?

[00:35:06] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Thank you. It was so I had a short list of VC names. One of the criteria is obviously was to make sure it doesn’t sound too childish or too nerdy. So folks would still consider, you know, if they see that, okay, this seems legitimate because obviously, again, I don’t have a decade in the VC space or anything like that.

[00:35:23] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I had to make sure I’m not straying away too far. So in general, the reason why I narrowed it down to Recursive was I felt First and foremost, I made the logo kind of a Recursive sign, and it’s more of a play on programming actually funny enough where The idea is like, you keep repeating a function until you reach a base case, and then everything kind of stops there.

[00:35:43] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So the idea was, okay, if I’m providing capital, because the whole idea behind Recursive was based off the Convo student 2018, my older bro, where I was like, okay, a ton of stuff is going to be developed. We need efficient capital allocation. It can’t be from the outside because then a lot of different incentives will happen and people likely not get products and services that match the local geography.

[00:36:00] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So first I was like, okay, we need to have capital allocators on the ground that understand the geography like us. So how do we position for that? Okay. And that really crystallized and then turned into an article essentially in 2020, where I just dropped it. My thinking was, even if I don’t get to do Recursive, at least it’s out there, someone else can take it up.

[00:36:17] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So in general, the thesis is pretty much straightforward in terms of the reason why I picked Recursive is okay. If we’re seeing, we have to keep funding to a point where the base case essentially here is Bitcoin being ubiquitous on the continent and really more generally globally. So the idea of the Christmas we’re providing the seed funding as well as the infrastructure to get to a point where we reach this base case, which is Bitcoin being ubiquitous for people to use the financial sovereignty and things like that, which is, you know, ties into again, how the logo looks and the name essentially.

[00:36:48] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that’s why I decided to go with that.

[00:36:51] Preston Pysh: Love it. What’s the number one question you get from limited partners when you’re talking to them?

[00:36:57] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Number one would be why Africa? Why Bitcoin? And it’s understandable. Initially, when we started, it was again, 2020. A lot of things were up for a question, like what the hell is a Bitcoin company or why Bitcoin?

[00:37:08] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Why not crypto? And at the time, even funny enough in the article, I did describe the whole thing as Web3. Into two specifically financial sovereignty through Bitcoin and then online sovereignty through privacy protocols and all that. Obviously, I lost the naming wars, so I decided to rebrand in 2021 as fully just a Bitcoin VC just to make it crystal clear.

[00:37:26] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But the combos have been interesting to see evolve over time. So at the time, a lot of people were like, you know, why Bitcoin doesn’t make sense as one of many. And I was arguing, no, there’s only an illusion of one of many. The truth is it always keeps proving itself decade after decade, that it is the only thing that you can bank on when your life is in danger, when you’re looking at actually getting the job done and not just talking for talking sake.

[00:37:49] Abubakar Nur Khalil: A lot of people always revert back to Bitcoin, which is why I feel if I’m going to invest in anything, it has to be something else to be around in a decade, in 20 years, 50 years, and that’s going to be just Bitcoin. A lot of people have started to realize that over time as some of these conversations have gone from why Bitcoin to hmm.

[00:38:05] Abubakar Nur Khalil: What are you seeing in the Bitcoin space? So a lot of that has shifted in specifically with Africa. The idea for me was if I am going to provide value to the investing space, I can’t obviously compete with the larger funds on the financial side, you know, with the limits on capital and things like that.

[00:38:18] Abubakar Nur Khalil: But one thing I can do is to look at where the asymmetric bet can be the largest, but wouldn’t require as much infrastructure, which is Africa from my standpoint. So the point for me is, okay, I’m here. I understand the, I understand the space, the landscape, I’m a developer, all of that. What is going to take for Africa to get to the point where we technically do dictate one, the development in a positive way of making sure that Bitcoin still has all these assurances of it’s your money.

[00:38:45] Abubakar Nur Khalil: No, I’m going to touch it since ship resists and all of that. It has to be from geography where. The people on the ground naturally have all these problems. So I feel two things are Recursive, which is the thesis itself is we’re banking on Africa because one, the developer base is just trying to be talented.

[00:38:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And I think it’s going to be at the forefront of development in general. We’re already starting to see some of that with needing developers coming out of the continent. But two, I feel the definition of a Bitcoin company will continue to evolve and mimic exactly the companies that will come out of Africa because of the problem set that we have.

[00:39:14] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Because Bitcoin uniquely solves those problems, so naturally it would reflect in the companies that come on the ground. So for me, if I’m investing in a Bitcoin company, I feel, I want to invest in a place where I feel that would be the most truest definition of what it means to be a Bitcoin company. So a lot of that is kind of how the conversation have gone to a point where right now it’s like, okay, What, not only is it, what am I seeing in the Bitcoin space, it’s what’s happening in the African Bitcoin space, which is also crazy to think that there is an African Bitcoin space because when I got into the space, that concept was not even possible to discuss.

[00:39:43] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it’s been interesting to see kind of the dynamics, obviously with how that has evolved and obviously our investments on the ground and the LP convos.

[00:39:50] Preston Pysh: How do you balance this dichotomy of mission of trying to do what’s right locally within your country or in Africa? Versus the LP interest of trying to outperform Bitcoin and just trying to make sure that it’s a, it’s truly a win win without compromising, you know, the, the performance aspect.

[00:40:12] Preston Pysh: How do you think through that?

[00:40:14] Abubakar Nur Khalil: It’s interesting. My, my thoughts have definitely changed over time and I’ve had to like synthesize a thesis over and over as I’ve been proven right and wrong on a lot of things. And for me, the thinking is one, I’m definitely very, very grateful that. All the LPs on Recursive Capital are folks that Share the same level of intrigue and insight into exactly what I feel is how the space would evolve, but also folks that do have the ability to think far and long enough to the point where they understand exactly what the play is that we’re actually, we’re actually engaged in right now.

[00:40:47] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And in terms of how I balance out, like some of the performance on whether it’s like outperforming other funds or Bitcoin in general, it’s. Really tied into directly how I think about the investment strategy on the ground with Recursive, which is why I tend to look at as like different themes that I’m investing as opposed to just investing in exchanges or end user wallets for a variety of reasons, again, volume constraints and things like that.

[00:41:09] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, it’s. If I’m trying to outcompete Bitcoin itself, which makes a lot of sense, because that is the benchmark. There are also other things that proceed from that, that are also benchmarks, like on the mining side, like the way I think about it is, would you rather invest in Bitcoin itself? Would you rather invest in a mining operation that yields bitcoins, or would you rather invest in Recursive?

[00:41:29] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me to outperform all of that would be to ensure that the companies that we’re getting into are at the infrastructure level. Because that’s the only way we can compete right now. Anything above, at those higher levels, or Either too early or they’re likely not going to win out eventually because we’re too early in the space.

[00:41:45] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it’ll likely be like the third generation of that type of company that would win out. So for me, the way to stay competitive is to ensure that we’re plugging into the infrastructure, whether it’s on the mining side, on the, Actual development of some of these protocols and the Bitcoin space and making sure at each part of these investments, we’re looking at it from kind of a, from a standpoint of, will this be just as competitive as if someone wants to put into Bitcoin?

[00:42:09] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And so far we’ve managed to, you know, be not only just competitive, but in some instances, a lot more better of a bet than just getting into Bitcoin or just mining. So that’s kind of how I proceed from that. And in general, just to optimize for that over time, whether that means doing even further investments on the Bitcoin side.

[00:42:23] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So we kind of. Internalize the metric or even holding some of the capital in Bitcoin as well to kind of just ensure we have not only a baseline of all these metrics, but also additional returns really from the investments we get into.

[00:42:36] Preston Pysh: How do you think through the political risk when you’re making investments across the continent?

[00:42:41] Abubakar Nur Khalil: It’s been, it’s been interesting because. There isn’t, we aren’t regulated obviously because Recursive isn’t structured as a Nigerian company to begin with. So technically we are, yes, I am domiciled here and all that, but I’m not an actual Nigerian company. So regulation doesn’t actually, there’s no regulation really for what I’m doing.

[00:42:58] Abubakar Nur Khalil: And just for context too, for the listeners and folks in general, thinking about the investment space in Africa is the one thing to realize is there’s no Bitcoin African VC, except for Recursive Capital. So a lot of the work that I’m involved in is not only just running the fund, but making sure that. I am having the right conversations with people that are actual regulators on the ground, not just people that are in touch with those people, but the actual folks on the ground.

[00:43:20] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, it’s balancing out, ensuring that all the investments I’m making are strategic plays that with or without the regulatory clarity will still be clear enough and will still outperform other, you know, ventures either globally or within the continent. And specifically what that means on the ground is making sure that I’m not, I’m kind of balancing out making as much noise to get the right entrepreneurs, like in terms of my visibility on the map, as well as making sure that I’m seeding all the development I need on the infrastructure.

[00:43:50] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Because again, one of the passions, obviously for me is just developer education as well as getting more developers. And that also plugs into the entire value chain, as well as the pipeline of Recursive Capital. Because the more developers I’m turning through all these other initiatives. The more beneficial it is for the VC space, because again, more developers, more companies that are a lot more focused and a lot more competitive than other parts.

[00:44:11] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Again, on the regulation side is making sure I’m not going, Hey, you know, I’m the only Bitcoin VC, I have a huge target on my back and always being more strategic and knowing what to say, how to say, how to present and always making sure that I’m ahead of the regulations essentially.

[00:44:27] Preston Pysh: How do you think through the assessment of the founders and the entrepreneurs that you’re investing in?

[00:44:33] Abubakar Nur Khalil: It’s interesting because I, even when VCs say they’re early stage, that itself is ambiguous because it could be, you know, entrepreneurs that just have an idea and you’re investing in them. It could be all the way from, you know, getting entrepreneurs who already have an MVP, or maybe they already have some traction, they’ve bootstrapped and things like that.

[00:44:51] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So for me, it’s capturing all of that, but in a way that’s not disruptive one and two, in a way that’s sustainable. Yeah. But the way I do that is kind of bucketed out. So if I’m looking at someone who’s really early stages at a convo, it was really the majority of the bets are really on the people and not necessarily what they’re building because you’re essentially investing in that person, making sure that you’re aligned or they’re aligned with the goal that you have at the end of the day with like proliferation, Bitcoin and things like that.

[00:45:15] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So if you’re really early stage, the idea is to internally bring you in as, you know, something we call Recursive labs, quote unquote, which is kind of this informal structure. We have a walking entrepreneurs from ideation all the way up to MVP stage where. Obviously we are providing capital and additional help and things like that.

[00:45:31] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that’s how you bucket that segment of the market. Now, if you’re an entrepreneur who already has like an MVP or something to show on the investment side of business model, then we take you on from the check size. So, you know, 50 to a hundred is typically what we deploy at that point. And then anything after that is more on a case by case basis, because our main focus is really just on the idea side, all the way up to the point where there’s traction and there’s actually an investment case to be made.

[00:45:56] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Now we’re making sure we’re not overloading the investments. We’re not throwing people or not just throwing capital and then hoping that finds a business case in the, in the market, which doesn’t happen. So we’re trying to be as careful as possible with regards to how we plug in and how we actually provide value as a fund really, and not just, you know, capital.

[00:46:13] Preston Pysh: What are you excited about for 2024 and beyond what’s at the top of the list?

[00:46:18] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it’s interesting. I’ve been, first of all, fortunate to be involved in a lot of things on the continent that. I have seen not only just mature, but honestly just blossom out of nowhere. So looking back from, I’d say 2022 to date, I’ve been very, very interested in seeing the dynamics of the Lightning Network and how that has shaped up to a point where we have people literally zapping each other without necessarily having smartphones with, you know, matching Quora all the way up to the, The new product that he’s working on actually, which is to get future phones to actually be Bitcoin hardware wallets, which is going to change not only just the landscape, but the conversation around Bitcoin security and how people can deploy at scale when it comes to self custody.

[00:46:59] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So that’s definitely something interesting that I’m looking forward to seeing how that evolves other projects that are more stealth mode that, you know, I can’t get into much detail, but I firmly believe will likely change. Not just how the landscape is seen from a regulatory standpoint, but the inability to actually regulate it without necessarily disrupting all other regulation and all of their standard businesses.

[00:47:17] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it’s kind of in a way of building resilience from day one. So a lot of products around that. And then on the mining side, really, I find it very interesting to see how that would develop with regards to nation states and how they think of it from sovereign wealth fund standpoint in terms of increased sovereignty.

[00:47:33] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Because again, Africa is. The majority of decisions that happen politically are kind of at the receiving end of a lot of things, whether it’s, you know, IMF debt or, you know, all the other large players in fighting and things like that. So for us, it’s interesting to see what the dynamics will be like when we have energy sovereignty, because again, one of the things for nation states is once they have energy sovereignty, all the other things are kind of more secondary, and you’re able to bolster your actual sovereignty, your state at the table when it comes to geopolitical conversations and things like that.

[00:48:02] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So I’m interested to see that dynamic play out. We’re still very early where it’s like, you know, Five megawatts and things like that, but we’re going to get to a state, I believe, where that is going to play a huge part in how Africa is viewed as a continent when electrification is so ubiquitous as a result of Bitcoin mining, as well as foreign reserves being in Bitcoin and what that means for their sovereignty, monetarily speaking, especially in the Francophone area where they’re able to regain monetary sovereignty as well as their actual energy sovereignty too.

[00:48:29] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So those are kind of the dynamics I’m seeing. What would be cool is growing the 1 percent hash rate that we currently have in Africa too. Something more substantial. And I feel that would likely come in the form of more companies on the mining side, as well as hopefully down the line, who knows, might have a mining pool coming out of Africa as well to compete the earlier, the better.

[00:48:46] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So a lot of those things are kind of what I’m looking forward to. And yeah, obviously the investment on the Recursive side and kind of, all the tech that’s out for entrepreneurs to build.

[00:48:54] Preston Pysh: Very exciting. Very, very exciting. Okay. So I’m going to have a link in the show notes to Recursive Capital. I’ll also have a link in there so people can read up about Btrust and what you’re doing there.

[00:49:06] Preston Pysh: And I can’t thank you enough. This has just been such a pleasure to get to know you since the start of the year, and I cannot wait to see where, where you go, man, I just can’t even imagine in five, 10 years where you’re going to be at, but. Is there anything else that you wanted to highlight or bring up to the audience?

[00:49:24] Abubakar Nur Khalil: I’d say just pay more attention to Africa. Like a lot of people are confused about exactly what’s happening. And you know, it’s understandable. A lot of fun comes out. So one of the other things I was prioritizing through the last year is writing more about what’s happening on the ground. Cause it makes no sense if we know what’s happening and then we’re reading off of secondhand information from people.

[00:49:44] Abubakar Nur Khalil: So it was cool to get, you know, the call from the Forbes team their attempt at kind of rebranding Forbes as being more, more factual about Bitcoin. So I’m happy to help contribute to that. So yeah, if you’re looking for Bitcoin info really on the continent too, I do write for Forbes now, so you can check that out as well as other incredible Forbes writers that have been covering that like Susie.

[00:50:01] Preston Pysh: Okay. And we’ll have a link also to your, to your Twitter or X and also your Nostr account so that if people want to see these articles that you’re posting, I’m sure you’ll share them on, on there as well so that you can get in their feed. So we’ll have that there as well. Abubakar. Thank you, sir. This was amazing.

[00:50:19] Preston Pysh: I hope you have a wonderful day.

[00:50:21] Abubakar Nur Khalil: Thank you for having me.

[00:50:23] Preston Pysh: If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening and I’ll catch you again next week.

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