January 31, 2023

Preston Pysh interviews Justin Rezvani about the creator economy and how peer to peer immediate payments on the Bitcoin Lightning Network has the potential to change everything.

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  • Justin’s background as an entrepreneur.
  • How Justin found Bitcoin.
  • Justin’s opinions about the Creator Economy at large.
  • How Justin became familiar with the Lightning Network.
  • Justin’s advice for young entrepreneurs.
  • Justin’s new application, Zion, and how it fits into decentralized social media.
  • Decentralized Web Nodes and Web 5.


Disclaimer: The transcript that follows has been generated using artificial intelligence. We strive to be as accurate as possible, but minor errors and slightly off timestamps may be present due to platform differences.

[00:00:00] Preston Pysh: Hey everyone. Welcome to this Wednesday’s release of the Bitcoin Fundamentals Podcast. On this week’s show, I have entrepreneur and Bitcoin Lightning expert Justin Rezvani. Justin is a Forbes 30 under 30 and has some fascinating stories as a tech entrepreneur, which we start off the show with.

[00:00:16] Preston Pysh: But then we transition into how Justin sees the creator economy evolving with immediate settlement happening on the Lightning network. And how people are going to be compensated for holding their own data and content instead of the big platform owners. This is a fascinating chat, and Justin is right in the thick of it with his own app called Zion.

[00:00:35] Preston Pysh: So sit back and enjoy my chat with Justin Rezvani.

[00:00:42] Intro: You are listening to Bitcoin Fundamentals by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Now for your host, Preston Pysh.

[00:01:01] Preston Pysh: Hey everyone. Welcome to the show. I’m here with Justin. And Justin, it’s, it’s been a long time in the making for this conversation a little too long.

[00:01:09] Justin Rezvani: Thank you so much. I’m, I’m honored. It, it’s the perfect time in fact, so thank you. Perfect time. Thank you for having me. Yes.

[00:01:15] Preston Pysh: Love it. And we made it happen. I wanna start off the conversation with your background.

[00:01:20] Preston Pysh: So you’re a successful entrepreneur. You’ve been named in Forbes 30 under 30, which is not an easy task to do. Let’s start off with your first company, because people love hearing entrepreneurial stories es especially the the successful ones like yours. So talk to us about how you found yourself in building this company theAmplify.

[00:01:42] Justin Rezvani: Of course. So let’s like go circa 2012, Instagram gets bought by Facebook for a billion dollars. I grew up in Los Angeles, so some of my friends that I went to high school happened to be actors and actresses and some new show and, and I talk about this in my book and there’s an actor named Keegan Allen, who’s a good friend of mine, and he had about like 50,000 followers on this thing called Instagram.

[00:02:05] Justin Rezvani: And they got bought. I was like, Hey, are you doing ads? Like, have you, like, have you done advertising with brands before? And he’s like, not really. It’s like, it’s really cumbersome process. My agent has to get involved and then a manager, and then there’s. And the brand always has feedback, and it’s just a really complicated process, but I would like to do it if there was an easy way to do that.

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[00:02:27] Justin Rezvani: So I was 24. I said, you know what I’m like, I’ve been working at this ad agency that I was really unhappy with. I was selling little banner ads and so I was in the ad business so I understood what a CPM and a cost per engagement was. And man, like these followers are like impressions. Like what if like you posted.

[00:02:44] Justin Rezvani: And then we used those impressions as like a CPM model to do an ad campaign. And I said, is there an app on the app store that connects an influencer to a brand? Hmm. And at the time there wasn. And also Instagram still had this open graph api, which allowed you to gather all this data. Hmm. From a person posting on social media.

[00:03:03] Justin Rezvani: So I spin a start like coding an application. This is really my first instinct in kind of building a product. And said, okay, there’ll be an app. It’s a two-sided marketplace where an influencer could log in. They would get campaigns, they would get questions from a brand and say, Hey, do you wanna work on this movie campaign?

[00:03:22] Justin Rezvani: They would create the content on their phone, submit it to the brand. The brand gets a dashboard. The brand says yes. They post on Instagram, they’re paid instantly through PayPal. And that’s, that was it. That was the idea. So can we build something like. And it was the first, and it just really just took off.

[00:03:38] Justin Rezvani: And for, did you, did you almost fundraise for this or did you No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. So, so basically, I was basically living in an apartment in Culver City, two grand a month in rent. And my dad loaned me $80,000 and he said, look, I’ll give you three months. You gotta figure this out in three months.

[00:03:56] Justin Rezvani: And at that time I found this developer in India that I was paying two grand to basically do the app and then 2,500 to kind of do the backend stuff. And we got it done in two months. And I went out to the market and within the first six weeks, I called two people that I knew that was from the previous ad world.

[00:04:14] Justin Rezvani: The first person was the head of digital at Fox, and the other one was the head of digital at Lionsgate. They each gave me one, gave me 60,000, the other one gave me 50,000. In six weeks, we did 110,000 in top line revenue, and I took home almost $75,000 because my cost of good sold for that campaign was like, I don’t know.

[00:04:33] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. 40 grand or something like that. And I’m sitting there and theAmplify is running. I’m like, this is like more money than I’ve made my entire life. Life. Yeah. Six weeks, like this is a thing. And we proceeded to do 1.5 million in revenue. The first year I took home one. The second year I took two and a half million home.

[00:04:50] Justin Rezvani: The third year I took three and a half million. Then I sold the company after the fourth year in 2016. So we ended up being one of, we were actually like, if you were running ads on Instagram and needed to grow at Instagram following mm-hmm , we were the only way to do it up until the middle of the summer of 2015, cuz Instagram had no ads.

[00:05:07] Justin Rezvani: So imagine you’re a brand, you’re like, Hey, I need to have a, I need to have a presence on Instagram. How do I drive followers to my. Influencers were the only way to do it. And we were doing this at scale, so we would have 20, 30 influencers posting all on your behalf in one hour. So we, we created these like thunders strike campaigns where it was just like all these people would just post at the same time.

[00:05:27] Justin Rezvani: Everyone would see it on Instagram and be like, oh my God, I gotta go see this movie, or I gotta go buy this product. It was, it was a really, really exciting time.

[00:05:34] Preston Pysh: Wow. That’s just, it’s such a whirlwind and your timing was just so impeccable in that particular space.

[00:05:43] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. Like that’s just amazing. And I sold the company, I sold the company at 27.

[00:05:46] Justin Rezvani: I owned a hundred percent of it. I bootstrapped it. No investors, no outside capital. What did dad get the end? What? What was dad’s take? I gave dad, I gave dad 5% when I sold. Oh, there you go. Okay, good. So it kind of life, life changing money for our entire family. I mean I gave him and not like, that was crazy to them cuz it was just like, pay off the house, buy my brother a house, buy another place.

[00:06:08] Justin Rezvani: Like, oh, that’s awesome. We did all, we did all this stuff and it was a moment that really changed my family. You know, those things like that. One person in your family to change the whole trajectory. And now it’s like generational wealth has been created in one generation. And for my dad, it’s a big deal.

[00:06:22] Justin Rezvani: He’s, my dad’s from Iran when he came here when he was 18, with literally nothing. And for him, within one generation of his son, to be able to, like, I, I give a lot of credit to my parents. They’ve like, they’ve been so, so kind and, and growing me as an entrepreneur. And, but for them it’s just like, it feels so good to get to that place at such a young age and oh, here we are.

[00:06:42] Preston Pysh: Wow, what a blessing. I love that story. That is so awesome.

[00:06:46] Preston Pysh: And I love that your dad is first American in the country and you guys get this giant win under your hands. So this is great. So you get this win under your belt. Where does Bitcoin enter into, like when do you start seeing this as something?

[00:07:02] Justin Rezvani: So I stay on the board till 2018, and then I, I leave mm-hmm.

[00:07:05] Justin Rezvani: and I sell it, you know, I’m no longer on the board. I’m no longer ceo. I take about two years off. And, and that was really around getting my health together. I weighed 240 pounds when I was running my company. Hmm. So I was quite a big boy, and I said, you know what? I wanna lose weight. I decided to be like, trained as a professional athlete, and I was doing Ironman full-time for two years,

[00:07:25] Justin Rezvani: And then I, I go through this really traumatic brain injury at the end of 2019 and I’ve, I’ve talked about it on Peter’s podcast. Yeah. Peter McCormick’s podcast, but Basical. I had a, I had a stroke at the 28th, end of 2019. They found a tumor in my right temporal lobe early 2020. I had brain surgery to remove that.

[00:07:44] Justin Rezvani: So I have a titanium plate holding to the side of my skull together. I’m feeling great. I’ve survived that, and I’m on a flight. This is late 2020, October, 2020, and I’m on a flight to Istanbul. An advisor of mine said, you need to read this, and it was the lighting white. And I read it and I, I read it six or seven times on this flight, 10 hour flight to assemble.

[00:08:06] Justin Rezvani: And I’m like, this was the technology that I needed basically four, six years ago to build theAmplify. But now I can. Now I can do it now. And the idea was that could you send money between two individuals without anyone in the middle through a protocol? And enlightening was it. And that was the light bulb moment to me and I.

[00:08:25] Justin Rezvani: Is there a creator network that pairs a, a fan to a creator that’s doing something through the Lightning Network at scale and, and, and at scale in like a consumer product way? At that point, I was trying to invest in a company that was doing it, but I didn’t find one, like I had, like my family office had a charge, like, Hey, let’s go find a lightning startup to invest in that does this, that’s building a social product with lightning payments and Bitcoin involved and everyone was doing it with tokens or some other.

[00:08:55] Justin Rezvani: No one was doing it at the time with Lightning and I basically went to myself and I said, Justin, like you’re semi-retired, like you gotta go do this. Like you gotta go build another business. And so 2020 started, you know what is now Zion and we’re almost a little bit over two years into the journey.

[00:09:12] Preston Pysh: So, Justin, let me ask you this.

[00:09:13] Preston Pysh: So I would think that for a person that is looking at it from the, the angle that you’re seeing it, that it would be enticing. And I’m not saying that I, that I’m saying this about you. I’m just saying. When you’re looking at all the ways that you could accomplish that, it would be very easy to kind of get sucked into some of these other tokens because they do immediate settlement, even though it’s not decentralized.

[00:09:37] Preston Pysh: We all know that as Bitcoiners, but I would think that it’d be real easy to kind of maybe get sucked into there without not having an in-depth understanding of like monetary policy and other, all these other things that I don’t think were in your, your background prior to that. So why Bitcoin for you?

[00:09:52] Preston Pysh: Why specifically the Lightning Network?

[00:09:55] Justin Rezvani: I think because I, I, I appreciated the elegance and the simplicity, but you know, to be quite frank, when I started this thing, many people were like, do a token and I’ll make you a hundred million dollars. And I knew, I, I could have done it. Like there was the amount of relationships I had with creators and venture capital and all those things.

[00:10:12] Justin Rezvani: Like, I could have done one of these coins. I could have made a ton of money, dumped it on retail, flown into the then, but it just like, it didn’t feel right to. And I wanted to build something that had true longevity. Mm-hmm. . I also didn’t want to be in the token business. I wanted to be in the processing business that somewhat the payment processing business for the creator economy.

[00:10:31] Justin Rezvani: That’s what I wanted to study my mm-hmm. And to me it made the most sense that if you are a fan and you wanna transfer value to a person, like a creator that you look up to, why not use the hardest digital money ever created, which is. Why invent my own currency? Why invent my own tokens when I can do it with the hardest money ever created at scale?

[00:10:53] Justin Rezvani: And the brilliance of Bitcoin is just, just use this asset that is there and that that was my. Frankly, I just was never, I don’t think I was even smart enough to figure anything else out. It just made so much sense. It was intuitive. Bitcoin was so elegant and perfect. It was intuitive and it was elegant and it was perfect.

[00:11:09] Justin Rezvani: It was, it was cuz cuz my mission, my simple mission was can a fan pay a creator without anyone in the middle? Mm-hmm. like that was the, the simple elegance of what I wanted because I knew that the, the centralized advertising models of these platforms was eventually gonna go. But I also knew that you had to figure out how to make a monetizable business.

[00:11:30] Justin Rezvani: The reason that these companies use advertising is cuz it’s the only way they figure out how to monetize because there was no peer-to-peer money at the time of Facebook was created. Yeah. There’s no peer-to-peer money at the time Twitter was created and now you have an opportunity that a peer-to-peer money system is there.

[00:11:45] Justin Rezvani: That’s the way that you can monetize and boost shop these networks in a more effective. Hmm.

[00:11:50] Preston Pysh: Talk to us about just this term, the creator economy that you’re, that you’re using. Just describe it in, in a very broad sense, and then get as granular as you want.

[00:12:00] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. I think the way to, the way to think about it is the emergence of the creator economy comes from platform theory and, and platform theory to me is that how have platforms evolved over the past 20 years?

[00:12:10] Justin Rezvani: And this was like something that I wrote in like 2014 when I first started my first company was that the first series of platforms were Google and Apple. And those were in like the early two thousands. And what they did is they enabled the next series of platforms, which are the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Twitters of the.

[00:12:28] Justin Rezvani: Those are now the key plat. Now, those key platforms enable the next series of platforms, which are creators, and that was the enablement of the creator economy is mm-hmm. A platform like YouTube gets created and it develops Mr. Beast, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And now the question is, what is the natural next evolution of the creator economy?

[00:12:45] Justin Rezvani: If we know that platforms are now people and the tools that are built to support the previous. So it was natural for me to say like, the creator economy is basically the system of following another individual and being able to monetize and, and, and, and express the following of this individual and the sharing of content across this individual because now people like yourself, you are a cornerstone of the creator economy when it comes to talking about investments and Bitcoin and those things.

[00:13:14] Justin Rezvani: You are a creator in that. And that’s kind of my thinking and definition of the creator economy.

[00:13:19] Preston Pysh: Okay. Gotcha. Now, you talk a lot about protocols, kind of stepping into the application layer and and, and some of those kind of things or replacing it here in the future. Give us just a broad brush overview of where you see some of this moving and, and also kind of the timeline that you see some of this happen.

[00:13:39] Justin Rezvani: I, I think that we’re, we’re entering an age where I think protocols and systems that allow a relationship between two individuals to be more like, I guess peer to peer is emerging. I think that we’re seeing that a little bit with what you’re seeing like the last couple weeks with Noer and the idea of that and like how exciting that might be for a decentralized messaging.

[00:14:01] Justin Rezvani: So I think that we’re, we’re a ways away from the incumbents going away. I think we’re three, five, maybe even 10 years away because they have such deep-rooted network effects. But the point is, are we starting to build systems that allow for peer-to-peer money transfer to work within the content networks?

[00:14:19] Justin Rezvani: Because right now I think a lot of these systems we realize is like they’re discovering content networks, but they’re highly centralized. Yeah. So what if there’s a. Where the distribution and the monetary aspect of that distribution can come together, right? Like where you can actually make money for posting things on the internet and directly be paid by your fans, by not a middleman.

[00:14:40] Justin Rezvani: I think we’re entering that new era and we’ve seen a little bit of a proxy of this is like only fans, right? Only fans makes more revenue than Twitter. And what, how they do it is through peer-to-peer monetary transfer. Yes, it’s a adult content, but why does it have to be adult content? Why can people like send SATs for individual messages or when they watch a video, why can’t they like stream SATs for watching a video?

[00:15:04] Justin Rezvani: I think we have this completely new unlocked that’s available, particularly because of the Lightning network.

[00:15:09] Preston Pysh: Yeah, no, I agree with. It’s fascinating when you think about how much these big platforms, the Facebooks and the Twitters and whatnot, how much value they’re able to extract out of all this content generation with the content creator, really not receiving much value for how much data harvesting that they’re doing through all that yet.

[00:15:31] Preston Pysh: And so it has to go. If we do truly transition over to a protocol layer and you really kind of get rid of those big applications that are upstream of the creators, I suspect that value has to manifest itself somewhere, which would be at the creator level, which is what you’re describing. It’s, it’s, it’s kind of mind blowing to think that that’s where this is going, and it’s exciting for anybody that’s participating in creating content, even whether it’s a small amount or a.

[00:16:01] Preston Pysh: It really just kind of changes. And I think the most important thing out of all of this is people are starting to get their data back and they’re getting control over that, and they’re not being exploited, in the worst case, being exploited for things they’ve clicked on in the past. And in most cases people have no clue that they’re being quote unquote exploited.

[00:16:21] Preston Pysh: And that might be a strong term. I’m curious. Your

[00:16:23] Justin Rezvani: thoughts on, on that term being used? I, I, I mean, I think they are, but I, but I think we have to take like a step back and see like what are the things that are broken in these systems Yeah. That need to evolve and need to expand. And I think there’s three main things that are kind of broken in these systems.

[00:16:39] Justin Rezvani: Number one is the identity layer of who you happen to be. Yes. Within these open architecture systems. That’s the first thing that’s. The second thing that’s broken is the, the way that messages are distributed and stored. That’s the other thing that I believe is broken because these large platforms own all of that.

[00:16:56] Justin Rezvani: And then thirdly, the monetization mechanisms of how these systems work, which is fundamentally a third party by advertising. So like when I think about these, these problems, I don’t think about it in the narrow scope of just like messaging, distribution. I look at it, these three specific things, and then what I am sending all my life force energy on is how do I solve for each of those individual layers?

[00:17:18] Justin Rezvani: Oh, I love that. With an open, with an open architecture. So like when I talk about, let’s say identity for example. Mm-hmm. , most people’s digital identity is owned by Google, 1.5 billion digital account. Of your Gmail that you use to log in downstream to almost everything else is owned by Google. So just like if you put out a scenario, if your Gmail account gets turned off, you can’t log into your bank and the 5,000 other websites that you’ve used because your base layer identity is owned by alphabet.

[00:17:47] Justin Rezvani: So let’s think about, okay, well how do we break through an identity that’s interoperable? Maybe an idea is this d I D concept? Mm-hmm. . That’s kind of where we started and thought about Zion. V2 is like, maybe we should use this interoperable key pair of a decentralized identifier that the web three consortium, that W three C has decided this is a new identity.

[00:18:07] Justin Rezvani: Maybe that’s a way you should identify a user or a creator. The next thing said, okay, well what if you wanna store data and how data is distributed? That’s where we evolved and said, you know what? Maybe this decentralized web node spec that block is working on. Maybe that’s a cool way to store data for a community.

[00:18:24] Justin Rezvani: If you’re a creator and wanna develop this community, maybe this is a cool way to do it. And the final piece is, oh, how do you monetize this entire vehicle? Well, if you can figure out that each user has a wallet and happens to be a lighting wallet, and every time an object is posted inside that network, you can send.

[00:18:40] Justin Rezvani: From any, any wallet to that object that then the creator gets paid. Maybe you have an idea of a new type of creator network. Maybe this is a new way to think about how a creator can monetize, and those are the primitives that I’ve spent a lot of time thinking through and, and why it’s like the next version of Zion, which is coming out next week.

[00:18:58] Justin Rezvani: Why it’s been built on these primitives, because it’s not like a, it’s not a centralized thing in Zion’s world. It’s an, it’s an open architecture thing. And then going beyond that, how you can think about content distribution in a bigger way. Like I think that’s the really cool thing about Nostr is like, It’s a publishing mechanism.

[00:19:15] Justin Rezvani: It’s not really good for like making communities or it’s not really great for identity or those other things, but it’s great for publishing. Yeah, that’s what, and, and that’s what we’re excited to use it for, is like, how can a creator disseminate information all over the place outside of its decentralized web node.

[00:19:30] Justin Rezvani: So these are the exciting aspects of where the world is going. And, and I’m really excited about it because I believe in a. Where like if, if we’re successful, Zion is the last platform you ever have to build an audience on because now your audience can be disseminated everywhere and you can take your followers with you to whatever the next client happens to be.

[00:19:50] Preston Pysh: Well, even beyond, so it your, you said Zion would be the last, I think that what’s would really kind of puts the power back in any user’s hand, whether you have a large following or you have a small following. You, like you said, you can switch clients. I would imagine on an app like Zion, you have the option for people to, if they wanna receive message traffic from whatever client, that that’s just a setting or an update that they could, that they could adjust inside of their Zion app or any, any app for that matter.

[00:20:23] Preston Pysh: Is that how you’re, you’re seeing that play out?

[00:20:25] Justin Rezvani: That that’s, that’s my hopeful goal is that if we, if we can convince application, develop, And saying like, DDS are this way to identify a user. Yeah. Why, why is this probably a good one to use? Is Well, because this consortium that basically built the internet said that this is a new type of identifier and if the larger application systems out there start implementing ’em, the Google rules.

[00:20:51] Justin Rezvani: The apples of the world. Like if those, then we have a new base layer identity that you can use a private key to identify yourself all across the web that you own. And what’s very important about our implementation, and I think this is like a really thing that’s very important, is that we use did ION as our implementation.

[00:21:06] Justin Rezvani: And what that does is that when you create this d I d. We use a protocol that anchors your identity to the Bitcoin blockchain through a transaction. So now the registrar of your private key is the Bitcoin blockchain because the Bitcoin blockchain is essentially a storage of keys. Mm-hmm. , it’s a storage of keys and u t XOs says This key can send this key, and now what if your identity sits there?

[00:21:31] Justin Rezvani: And that’s how we implemented it. We decided to use this specific, did implement. So now your d i d, your identity sits on Bitcoin as well as the value being transferred between a creator a fan is being done through Bitcoin. So we’re using two Bitcoin for actually two aspects in our network.

[00:21:47] Preston Pysh: And, and I’m, you know, I’m just throwing this out there cuz people might be thinking this as they’re hearing that your, your information is not being published anywhere that a person can see it.

[00:21:56] Preston Pysh: This is all through encryption That’s, that’s being encrypted into a block. Yeah, it’s, and through a hash is specifically through a hash and through a private key. And, and, and the way that ion is a, is a very specific spec that use the side. So if someone that wants to get very technical with this they can go to our docs.

[00:22:14] Justin Rezvani: I, we’ve created almost like a 70 page doc that describes how every aspect of the code inside Zion works. Happy to let anyone come in. That’s why it’s there. It’s there for you to go look at it and go to our website and look at our docs.

[00:22:28] Preston Pysh: So on your second point there on how messages are shared, I think this is such an important point.

[00:22:34] Preston Pysh: And I know I’ve been playing around with Nostr these past couple weeks, and so I spun up my own relay, which is basically my own personal server, and I’m choosing to store information that people are sharing as far as the message traffic. Is this, is this how you see things kind of progressing? And this gets into this idea of decentralized web nodes, I think is, is that what I’m?

[00:22:59] Preston Pysh: Is that what I’m doing is a decentralized web?

[00:23:01] Justin Rezvani: You’re, you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re exactly right. And I think the proxy to think about is like a relay and a decentralized web node are, are probably a similar thing where a decentralized web node, you know, Zion is launching with a single D W N, where a lot of the communities are attached to a single one with the optionality of saying, you know, what do I want to leave?

[00:23:20] Justin Rezvani: And leave with all this information to my own d w n and allow for this interoperability. I think that’s where these things are. All they, they’re all following us. If you, if you think about it, they all follow a similar technical pattern. You look at the ad protocol, you look at D wns, not like they all follow the same idea.

[00:23:37] Justin Rezvani: Just all doing it in a little different way. And I think what’s what, to me, what’s also very important though is, is a very like, slick user experience. You know, I, I, I can see what’s happening right now within like, some communities is like, you know, there’s these hackers, these like hackers that love to hack things together.

[00:23:54] Justin Rezvani: But one of my core tenets is I want to speak to the hacker and the painter simultaneously. So for us, a user experience that’s very easy for a customer is very important. That’s why Zion’s UX is a little bit. Like a traditional kind of mm-hmm. login flow. The app looks very traditional. You don’t have to attach to any relays.

[00:24:13] Justin Rezvani: Everything’s automated for you. You can post photos and videos ins and gifts, everything instantaneously inside the application. So we’re trying to make it a little bit more of a user, easier user experience per se.

[00:24:26] Preston Pysh: Well, and I think that that’s, you, you get that lost on a lot of developers and people that are early to a lot of this technology growth where they’re saying, no, it has to, it has to remain pure and everybody’s gotta do this, this hardcore way.

[00:24:41] Preston Pysh: And I think it’s more, I think it’s more, you always have to have the optionality to do it yourself and to do like to be able to run your own relay if you choose. But the majority of people that are gonna be onboarding to these platforms are definitely, not gonna be running their own node or relay.

[00:25:00] Preston Pysh: So they’re gonna be relying on other entities.

[00:25:02] Preston Pysh: And so people hear that and they’re saying, well, it’s gonna be, they just wanna scream. Centralization. Centralization. Right. And I think as long as, as long as you have the option to do it exactly on your own, that it’s not necessarily a concern. And so you saw this very early on. I mean, you demoed to me my own lightning node back in, what was it, 20?

[00:25:24] Preston Pysh: Was it 21? 21 or 21, yeah, 21. Yeah. And it was so simple, and what I was so amazed with was just how I had, I instantly had liquidity. Within setting it up in one or two minutes of downloading the app and having it, I was just like, oh my God, this is seamless. And having run my own node and having opened my own channels and trying to manage the liquidity of those channels, like you have to have some technical competence.

[00:25:51] Preston Pysh: Like totally, your typical person is not gonna have that technical competence. So talk to us about that and how you, how you envision this long and what right looks like right? Without centralizing things.

[00:26:07] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. And, and I think that the, the lens that I had was, you know, Zion v1, which launched about the time that I, I showed you, everything was like one user OneNote, one channel.

[00:26:16] Justin Rezvani: So every, in, everybody that was running to be on this network had to run their own instance. It was, it was very, very complic. and what we learned, and you know, now we have over 61,000 people on a wait list. The creators that we work with are like traditional YouTubers. They don’t know much about Bitcoin, was that, that user experience was very cumbersome.

[00:26:35] Justin Rezvani: So we had to take a step back and say, mm-hmm , how can we add the best layers of decentralization? How can we make the user experience as seamless as a Facebook or a Twitter and make it seem as easy as everything else? But then if you. Allow for you to leave to your own private instance within a system.

[00:26:55] Justin Rezvani: So, so our workaround was saying, okay, let’s think about the login right off. Every, every app in the world has to authorize you cuz they have to know who you are on the phone. We said let’s use, did I this is a way to do it, is you can use a private key encrypted by 12 words. and this becomes your identity inside the system.

[00:27:11] Justin Rezvani: Zion doesn’t store that. It’s stored on Bitcoin’s blockchain. Now we have a level of decentralization with authorization that kind of looks like a, a regular thing. You put in 12 words and that’s now your login. That’s the thing. Now we’ve, we’ve married that to those two aspects, so I think the other thing is we needed to like make the wallet very native to the experience.

[00:27:31] Justin Rezvani: What’s very unique about Zion V two? The wallet is in line with the actual content. So it’s part of the overall digital experience. It’s not an afterthought. It’s not outside of the application, it’s inside of the application. So a lot of these elements we had to kind of build and make it seem like, hey, this is part of the application, and you could just log in and and start it up on your own.

[00:27:53] Justin Rezvani: So that’s a lot of what we learned. And we think that for our customer segment, which is kind of outside of the hardcore, hardcore user, cuz the most hardcore people will go to the most hardcore things. We’re trying to go after the mainstream and we’re trying to go after creators that just know how to upload YouTube videos.

[00:28:09] Justin Rezvani: Mm-hmm. or know how to upload content to their Instagram. They don’t really know about Bitcoin, but they know that they want to be paid from their bands more directly and they know that they don’t wanna take 20% from only.

[00:28:20] Preston Pysh: Yeah, so I, I downloaded the app and I started tinkering around with it. I created an account, it just like you know, basically creating a a, a wallet with Bitcoin.

[00:28:32] Preston Pysh: It gave me the, the 12 words like you had mentioned as far as creating my account. Now in the future, where do you kind of see the app going? So if somebody creates this, they have their own I identity, it’s gonna need a network effect, which I think is gonna be an uphill battle. Initially for like the apples and those, those types of businesses of the world to start implementing or allowing people to use that as their identification, cuz they clearly have a disincentive to, to start incorporating some of those things.

[00:29:03] Preston Pysh: So how, how do you see that progressing on the ID front? Moving forward.

[00:29:08] Justin Rezvani: So I, I, I think that for us, you know, because we’re focused on a subset of creators mm-hmm. , our strategy is that, you know, some of our investors are some of the most influential people out there, right? So we have like Tony Robbins, Aubrey Marcus, you know, Mark Moss, Robert Breedlove.

[00:29:24] Justin Rezvani: Sean Steven Griffin Johnson, Aaron Rogers. From the Packers, right? These are all our investors. Our hope is that they’re building communities on Zion and they bring over their fans and saying, Hey, if you want to like, you know, build a, like, I’m gonna build a community that I actually owned for the first time.

[00:29:40] Justin Rezvani: That’s our way to try to build a network effect is just look at our investors and the people that work close to and say, Hey, you shouldn’t build a community on this application. The connections are now done through your dip. So that’s the beginning of how we’re trying to build this network effect, and then that’s gonna be our strategy as we kinda launch out the gate.

[00:29:59] Justin Rezvani: Is, is that the question that you were asking?

[00:30:01] Preston Pysh: Yeah, I that’s some of it, but it’s more on the you know, so like if I go to some random website and they’re asking me to create an account, it’s too easy for me just to click use my, use my Google account, Google to CR to create an account. how do we, how do we start getting these websites to start incorporating a DID.

[00:30:20] Preston Pysh: And what incentive do they have to do that

[00:30:22] Justin Rezvani: whenever? Yeah. I think that what’s unique and, and, and what we wanna bring is that if, if you log in with your did, it also comes with a wallet. So I think what’s really unique about the situation that we’re building out is that your d i d is also attached to a lightning wallet.

[00:30:39] Justin Rezvani: So imagine a world where when you’re logging into that website, you’re not just logging in with a authorization of who you are, but you bring along money and you can now enable this application to have payments enabled instantly. I think that’s a completely new unlock. And if you think about retail, right?

[00:30:55] Justin Rezvani: Like in order to make a payment, you have to spend 30 to 50 cents on every transaction, no matter the amount, right? That if you’re spending $3 or the minimum is five, you’re gonna spend almost 50 cents in fees. What if you can bring along a digital wallet that has funds in it that you can actually spend and buy?

[00:31:13] Justin Rezvani: So I think that’s the opportunity that I’m really excited about is that your, the identity as a user comes along with some funds that they’re able to spend inside these applications. So what if you could build a system that all applications are now payments enabled without too much work on the application front?

[00:31:30] Justin Rezvani: Because every app in the world has to think about authorization. They, they have to think about, who is this user? How do I identify who they are to work within my. And what if now there’s this interoperable identity network that isn’t centralized by a company, but it’s open and it brings along a digital wallet with it.

[00:31:48] Justin Rezvani: So I think that’s an unlock that’s really unique and new. I also think that the, the strategy and the network effect is every piece of content posted. Also, every reply in Zion is an active opportunity for a payment. So like a telegram chat, but imagine every message is boost. Imagine every Instagram post you make, someone can send you stats, but not just any, anyone in the network can send you stats.

[00:32:14] Justin Rezvani: Anyone that sees it can send you stats on the object, not on an invoice being posted and an invoice is paid. The object is an actual payment opportunity, and I think this unlocks, I think the next layer of the creator economy, which is the fans of the creators, cannot be paid for being contributors. Right?

[00:32:33] Justin Rezvani: So the people. That, you know, maybe you post something and someone posts something very meaningful and it’s a derivative of what you’ve posted, and people can boost that derivative thing and say, wow, that was really meaningful. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Or what about a world where someone’s clipping your podcast for you and redistributing and they can get some stats for that?

[00:32:51] Justin Rezvani: I think there’s a completely new unlock that will see when you build a network that’s enabled with money that’s liquid.

[00:32:58] Preston Pysh: Yeah. I mean, and if you think about it from a, from a client standpoint, When they’re trying to push content into somebody’s feed that actually the user actually wants to see, and that is actually feeding them the, the information that they desire.

[00:33:16] Preston Pysh: There’s no better way than, instead of it being alike, maybe it’s one sat or five sat or whatever the person wants to assign to it, and then that client provider can look at that and say, Hey, this thing’s been boosted by 20,000 sat, or whatever it might be. And they know that that’s a priority. Object. You were calling them objects or, you know, people might call it a tweet or a poster or whatever.

[00:33:37] Preston Pysh: Right. Client providers now have a very high signal that that is something that is everybody wants to see, or that it’s, it’s quality content to be shared where Sure, sure. Now, I don’t ne necessarily know. I mean, you could, you can go pay bots to just go and click likes and all sorts of things that, that are being it’s, it’s manipulating what reality would be cuz there’s no, there’s no actual cost to that.

[00:34:03] Preston Pysh: I mean, there’s a small cost to hire somebody to do it, but if they click the button a million times, it’s not reality. Right. There actually needs to be work behind each one of those units.

[00:34:14] Justin Rezvani: Right. And, and I think what, what often also happens in these decentralized networks is they have tremendous spam props.

[00:34:20] Justin Rezvani: And I’ve, I’ve already heard that. I’ve already heard that. You know, in some of these like clients, there’s a bunch of spam happening even in these newer protocols. And you know, the way that we’ve thought about it is number one, We don’t, I don’t necessarily believe in this like open net, like, like, like I think people wanna join communities.

[00:34:37] Justin Rezvani: So the way that Zion works is that there’s a couple aspects of, there’s your profile, then there’s a tab called Communities. Communities are things that creators would develop, and the idea is that you would go and join a community. And when you join a community, there’s three sets of pricing that are built into joining the community.

[00:34:56] Justin Rezvani: The first is like a price to join the community. So now you’ve created some sort of SATs blocker of like a bot is probably not gonna pay 25 SATs to join all these communi. Now there’s a second layer of payment, and by the way, these can all be zero as well. There’s no requirement to it to be payments.

[00:35:11] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. But there’s a reason for it. The second thing is a price per message. So now if you wanna post in the community, there’ll be a price to that the maybe the creator wants to send to say, if you wanna post in my community, it’s five sets, and then you could be part of a contribution to the conversation.

[00:35:25] Justin Rezvani: Then the third one is our anti spam feature, which actually takes sas and we we’re calling this a. It takes SATs out of your wallet for a certain amount of time, and if the administrator of the community deletes your post, you lose that stake. Mm-hmm. . So even if your price to common is zero, but the price to stake is a hundred, you’ve still built a mechanism to prevent spam at scale, because now there’s consequences.

[00:35:52] Justin Rezvani: There’s a price. And spammers don’t do spam if it costs anything. Spam only works because it’s free. That’s right. And now if you’ve built this proof of work into a social network, imagine the level of signal that gets created inside these systems when a post is no longer free. And also it’s inside of a community, right?

[00:36:10] Justin Rezvani: Like and I see, like I see that creators right now, they, they built this proxy of like, follow. But the real thing is community. So like everything is around like, what is this community? Because they all speak their own language. That’s why Discord is very popular is that like these Discord channels have their own memes and the way they talk about things.

[00:36:27] Justin Rezvani: And if you enable tools to build communities, but do it through money and through it through the mechanisms that we’re talking about through Lightning, I think there’s a whole new ex exploration of the creator economy that we just haven’t seen.

[00:36:40] Preston Pysh: What are your thoughts on AI and ChatGPT? That’s just like taking the world by storm right now.

[00:36:46] Preston Pysh: Especially when we talk about spam. Like, I mean, it’s.

[00:36:51] Justin Rezvani: What I just shared about the costs to post, we are now seeing that the price of content is basically going down to zero, right? If you’re a producer of content, if you’re a writer, if you’re, and, and eventually this stuff is gonna make photos and videos and all this other stuff, the price of content goes down to zero.

[00:37:09] Justin Rezvani: So the question becomes how are you supposed to filter out what’s the best? Mm-hmm. ? What is the the best thing when the price of content is zero? And lightning enables those types of things, number one. Mm-hmm. . Now the posting of that derivative content has an inherent cost to it, and then you now have the signal of saying, okay, this is a highly boosted.

[00:37:27] Justin Rezvani: Piece of content and not boosted by free likes, boosted by a limited finite resource of Bitcoin. Now you have an algorithmic way of feeding content to an individual and say, you know what? People paid a lot of stats to see this. This is probably a high signal piece of content. Now you have actual data, right?

[00:37:44] Justin Rezvani: Because you think about it like, like money’s data, but it’s the highest signal data possible. Yes. Because if you’re moving money from your wallet to another wa a wallet, that means like you really, really care about something and really it’s really me. Now you have that data as the proxy to build an algorithmic feed inside eviction unity.

[00:38:01] Justin Rezvani: So I think this is a completely new unlock, but we have to realize like the price of content is now effectively zero.

[00:38:06] Preston Pysh: Yeah. Such a great point. And I think, I think with AI it only enhances the ability to spam networks and just of course yeah, it’s, it’s pretty wild.

[00:38:18] Preston Pysh: So Nostr, we talked about it a little bit.

[00:38:21] Preston Pysh: I’ve been playing around with this and I think that there is an enormous amount of signal happening over there right now. And you had mentioned that you see it as complimentary to what you’re working on at Zion. Talk to us a little bit about how something like that would get incorporated and, and how you see that playing out.

[00:38:39] Justin Rezvani: No, I, I had a wonderful conversation with William, which yeah, he’s he’s building the dumbest client. And, and you know, one of the things that I told them in our, in our meeting was like, man, you know, you know, I’m, I’m a, I’m a. Marketing guy, and, and for me it’s, it’s all about, I want creators to have communities like I, and I don’t, what I don’t know is I don’t know what the right protocol is.

[00:39:00] Justin Rezvani: Like I, I don’t, you know, I have an idea where I think the right thing is, but I, I’m not that smart. I don’t know which is the right thing, which is, but I know that we’re all trying to do the same thing. We want freedom. We want freedom information. We, and I’m not like, I’m not very like religious about like, oh, this is a better proto, I don’t know what a better protocol.

[00:39:18] Justin Rezvani: So what I’ve done over the last couple weeks since this thing has really kind of taken off is saying how would we implement that within our stack? And, and the way that I understand it now from our engineering team is that we will probably develop our own relay mm-hmm. . And what we will use it for is that, you know, when you, when you publish content inside of ADWN or inside of a community, You have the optionality to also publish it to Noer, and now other clients can capture those communities content in a new, different way.

[00:39:45] Justin Rezvani: Because if you think about it, as far as I understand, it’s really about publishing, right? That’s really what Noer is really good at. It’s like, let’s get information everywhere across all these other informations. All these other and all these other places and across all these clients. So I see how I, I think that that’s how we will eventually implement it.

[00:40:04] Justin Rezvani: But I think we’re a ways away, and I think that it’s still very new. All, all this stuff is, is still very, very new. So we don’t know who’s gonna win. But I’m, what I’m hopeful is, I think the zeitgeist cares about this stuff, right? Like they care about it a lot. And you know what I’m thinking about it every.

[00:40:20] Justin Rezvani: And I, and I really see an incredible compliment to everything that we’re doing. I, I don’t see, like, like when I think the, the thing I don’t like on Twitter is when some people like get all like competitive and they get their egos built in, like, oh, my thing is better, or my thing is better. It’s like, Everyone’s gotta just relax and realize like, first of all, nobody uses this stuff yet.

[00:40:42] Justin Rezvani: So you guys are competing for a non-existent thing, like 5,000 people here and 3000 people here is not a competition. Like when it gets to 20 to a hundred million, that’s when you’re competing, right? Like that’s, that’s where it is. And there’s no need to fight. We’re all like on the same side trying to do the same thing.

[00:40:59] Justin Rezvani: We’re just trying it in different ways. Right. And I think that’s, that’s the one thing that it’s kind of, I’ve been seeing like this like kind of adversarial thing across. Like the web five versus Nostr versus like, I don’t know the difference guys, we’re all trying to do the same thing. It doesn’t matter.

[00:41:13] Preston Pysh: We’re all trying to do the same thing. Well, people are spending their time in, in various places, and I think that’s where a lot of the, the animated personalities and stuff come out is maybe they’ve invested, I don’t know, a couple hundred hours in one spot. So they obviously want to, to work in that location.

[00:41:28] Justin Rezvani: Like you, I see it as complimentary.

[00:41:30] Preston Pysh: I, I really do. I what you’re building and, and what I can see on the app is you can just, you can start pulling this content that’s being generated because it’s a protocol. It’s not somebody’s gated, you know,

[00:41:41] Justin Rezvani: server that you can’t access. It’s not like it’s a Twitter server that you can’t access that content.

[00:41:46] Preston Pysh: This content is, is just in the ether for anybody to start pulling into whatever application or client they, they. And start to present it to users in the most advantageous way for them to be productive and link them to, you know what’s so fascinating to me about it? Justin is just like, you basically have a Rolodex of every single person’s bank account.

[00:42:13] Preston Pysh: That you can, you can send funds to immediately. Right. And you don’t, you don’t know their, you obviously can’t get into their account, but you know the address of where to send it. And it’s just from following people. I, it’s just, it’s, it’s amazing to me. And then you start getting to, I had a conversation with Lyle with Vidia and like, now you can basically call anybody in the world.

[00:42:37] Preston Pysh: It’s almost like having any person’s phone number in the world. That you follow and if, if, you know, they set their price that they’re willing to, to receive the call and they can either pick up or not. And so you actually have the access to reach out to those people if you’re willing to pay the rates and all of this stuff can now be built into clients like yours because it’s completely interoperable and we’re doing it in a decentralized way with.

[00:43:04] Preston Pysh: These decentralized web nodes. It’s just crazy.

[00:43:07] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I think that just the, the point is I think there’s a lot of smart people trying to solve these problems. Yeah. And I think what, what, we’ll see, what, what I hope to see is that there won’t be another Facebook, there won’t be another Twitter, there won’t be another Instagram.

[00:43:24] Justin Rezvani: The next one, the next one that becomes the one will be this interoperable thing. Yeah. That will allow for and whatever the next one is. I don’t know if it’s us, it’s them. Like, we don’t, we don’t know who it is yet, but that’s what I’m really hopeful for. And the reason is because the, the money is interoperable.

[00:43:40] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. To me, like the brilliance of like, like Zion is not, not special, right. Like, but the, the moment that you could hit the, the button fund and then you could choose 200 applications mm-hmm. that are available. That you can fund that wallet with, and we have no relationship with a single one of them through an A P I or whatever that is brilliant.

[00:44:00] Justin Rezvani: Yeah. And at the same time, on the other side, anyone can generate a payment invoice across that interoperable network and any country without anyone in the middle, I can scan an invoice and pay it. Through a’s crazy social network. Like to me that’s like holy, like , it, it, it unlocks that insane thing that you’re just like, this is really cool.

[00:44:20] Justin Rezvani: Or like, like the idea that, like to me, like these are the ideas that are, that are mind blowing is I’m a creative. I’m in a community and I post a meme and this meme, everybody loves this meme, and everyone sends me 10 SATs for this meme because it’s super funny. And then instantly in the same application, not leaving the other app, I can go buy a hamburger in El Salvador with the money that was paid for the meme instantly with no bank in the middle.

[00:44:43] Justin Rezvani: That to me, is an unlock that we have not seen yet. It’s game changer, and to me that’s the bri, that’s the brilliance of this, like the what is the crater economy become. Well, I can become this professional meme poster. Someone can pay me instantly at an instant finite settlement and I can go buy something within 10 minutes.

[00:45:00] Preston Pysh: Some of those memes, some of those memes are million dollar memes. Of course they are. But what, like how come like, and I see this on Instagram or on Twitter all the time, like I would send 10 SATs for that. Oh yeah. That’s so funny. It is hilarious. How come there isn’t, how come there isn’t a mechanism for that element?

[00:45:17] Preston Pysh: In that element of being able to do video and photo? And that’s like, that’s one of the things that I think what’s, what was very important for Zion. And why we like, cuz we, we did explore, no sir. Very early. It’s just that it was too early for us. Cause we couldn’t post photos or videos and like Yeah. Our creators and the, the people that we work with, like our investors, they’re a video-centric creators.

[00:45:38] Preston Pysh: They’re, they’re photo first creators. And we said, Hey, do you want video or do you not? Like we want video. You gotta have video. We gotta post memes in our communities. We said, okay, we gotta do it this way, but that will fall along and we’ll eventually catch up to that other one. So that was like another reason why we chose this technical pattern, is it allowed for us to post, like right now, you can go into your profile and you could post up the five photos or five videos inside of a quick little carousel, and now it’s in your profile.

[00:46:04] Preston Pysh: Mm-hmm. and I can go follow you and send you hundred stats for that instantly. Like, like that’s kind of a new unlock that we couldn’t do you know what I mean? Mm.

[00:46:12] Preston Pysh: Yeah. And that, I think that’s taken some people a little bit of time cuz they’re so used to like the centralized servers. And it’s like, well if you’re operating on a decentralized network, where are you hosting the picture, , where are you hosting the video?

[00:46:23] Preston Pysh: Right. And so for people just think it works like magic and it’s not, but like you said, we’re gonna get there. And it’s, it just takes time. Takes time. It takes people building and coming up with new ways to link to hosting and, and all sorts of things.

[00:46:41] Justin Rezvani: And I think that’s, that’s kind of why the decentralized web node pattern for us made a lot of sense.

[00:46:46] Justin Rezvani: Because every community, so what’s gonna happen in the next six months is that when you start a community on Zion, which is a completely separate thing than your profile mm-hmm. , that will be its own distinct decentralized web node that then we will host for you. Mm-hmm. , and that’s kind of where we’re making the feast per month.

[00:47:03] Justin Rezvani: But eventually you’ll be able to take that and host your own D W N because your D W N can host photos. Videos. Yeah. Other types of objects. And that was the vision of why we chose this particular technical pattern because it was ready for heavier objects and files.

[00:47:17] Preston Pysh: Got it. Got it. I think that’s a really important point.

[00:47:22] Preston Pysh: It might be lost on some that you, that maybe are a little bit more technically challenged, but I think that that’s a really important point because people that are playing around on Nostr, they’re realizing real fast. You know, I can’t post a picture or, or I have to upload it to some like image hosting place.

[00:47:39] Preston Pysh: And you’re saying that a lot of that, especially on the video side, I think that that’s gonna be huge for people to pay for that service.

[00:47:46] Justin Rezvani: For you to, of course do the heavy lifting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And, and certain creators, just like they’re, they, they’re, they weren’t prepared to do that.

[00:47:52] Justin Rezvani: That’s what I, we also learned very early on is like, yeah, one user, one node, one channel. Like we got to, I mean, I, I don’t dunno if you know this part of the story, but like in the first six months, Zion became 13% of all the nodes on the Lightning network. Hm. So there were 17,000 nodes and I think over 3,500 of whom was our nodes.

[00:48:12] Justin Rezvani: Oh wow. Of the total nodes in the entire network. Yeah, a week and, and then our wait list had hit, hit 10,000. We couldn’t put nodes on fast enough when we realized like, We can’t scale this thing in this way. It’s impossible to to scale to where we want it. And now, you know, we’re almost ready to put this other version out and we have over 61,000 people that have been knocking and saying, we want to be on Zion.

[00:48:37] Justin Rezvani: And we knew that if we did it this way, it would never scale. Because imagine instantly imagine a hundred thousand people instantly sending a message and then instantly uploading a photo and instantly uploading a video, instantly sending stats to each other. When the networks get that big, the concept of decentralization kind of falls away.

[00:48:56] Justin Rezvani: So the question is, mm-hmm. , what can you build that’s sufficiently decentralized? Yeah, and I think that’s been my entire thinking is like, well take it to a certain point, but in order to build good throughput through output, sometimes you have to centralize things and there is a bit of trust, but the point is not about the level of trust in step.

[00:49:15] Justin Rezvani: The question is, can you leave? Right. Imagine Facebook, but you can take your followers with you. Yes, imagine Instagram, but you can take your followers in connections with you at some future point, and you could never do that on Facebook, and you could never do that, that on Instagram. You could never do that on Twitter.

[00:49:32] Justin Rezvani: No matter what you do, you can never, because they’re not your followers, they’re not your anything. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, you’ve, you’ve amassed an incredible audience, but unfortunately, like you don’t own. And at any time, it’s so harsh to say, but like they can take it away at any time. And our goal is that the connections that are made are not through a centralized service.

[00:49:53] Justin Rezvani: That’s, that’s the vision. That’s the hope, that’s the goal of using dds, decentralized web nodes, eventually this new protocol and the Lightning Network.

[00:50:02] Preston Pysh: Love it. Jack Dorsey has been quoted as saying You don’t own web three, the VCs and the LPs. It will never escape their incentives. It’s ultimately a centralized entity with a different label.

[00:50:16] Preston Pysh: Know what you’re getting into, and you’ve been saying the term web five for people, that are hearing this. Just saying what a bunch of jargon. What a bunch of jargon. Make this simple for people to understand the difference between web three, web five. What Jack’s talking about in his quote.

[00:50:33] Justin Rezvani: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I, I don’t want to quote Jack, I, I, I don’t want to say something that like, but my understanding of it, because this is a term that was coined by Block and I think the vision was that they wanted to separate themselves from Web three.

[00:50:47] Justin Rezvani: They wanted to skip over web floor and they just wanted to go to Web Five. So, so first of all, it’s a, it’s a marketing term. It’s not like a Yeah, I don’t think there’s act, I, I personally don’t think there’s actually versions of the web. I think there’s just the. So I, I don’t actually like, know of those versions, but it’s, but it’s a marketing term to build a distinction where you can own your identity, you can own the way messages flow, and it doesn’t have to be through a token, or it doesn’t have to be through a blockchain.

[00:51:15] Justin Rezvani: The elements that are built on Web five and the authorizations of Web five have all the principles of you being able to own everything but don’t involve a blockchain and don’t evolve their own tokens. I think that’s the separation, is that there’s this opportunity for true interoperability for the next version of the web.

[00:51:35] Justin Rezvani: And if we think about it, all the promises of Web three really is the same thing as web two. It’s just like, oh, it’s a blockchain instead of a database, but it’s still a walled garden. Yeah. Like no matter what you do, Ethereum is a walled garden. No matter what you do. Solana is a walled garden because you have to use it’s token, it’s database, it’s way to store things.

[00:51:56] Justin Rezvani: It’s just another version of. But it’s not like interoperable in any way, just cuz you can read and write. The question is, can you, can you read, write and change the code? Right? Can you change the elements of the code? Can you improve the code in the way that you wanna do it? And I think that’s the hope for what Web five is, is, is these primitives that I described and the primitives they’re focused on is the identity piece and the decentralized web node piece, which is the data.

[00:52:21] Justin Rezvani: We are adding this element of lightning, like, like I think that’s what’s unique. It’s like there’s no payments in the web five spec, but we added that into our version of it and our version of what social looks like. And that’s kind of why it’s in that, in our docks in that way is like, to me, the mo the money side of it is the most important.

[00:52:38] Justin Rezvani: Like, like none of this works without Bitcoin. Yeah. And I think that’s what we always have to remember. It’s like it won’t work without it.

[00:52:44] Preston Pysh: It, it truly grounds the digital universe with the physical. And I know sailor has, has talked about this extensively from just like a physics standpoint, but when we’re talking about likes and some of the things that we were saying earlier, it truly does.

[00:52:59] Preston Pysh: Like you have this granular unit, you have this atom. That there’s only so many of ’em, and there was work that had to be performed in order to actually receive that. We’re gonna call it, you know, that Satoshi or Adam. And when you assign it to an object, like you were saying, whether that’s a tweet or a post or whatever, there’s real work that somebody had to perform to assign it there.

[00:53:22] Preston Pysh: And it just starts to ground this digital space where you said the, the price has been pushed to literally zero. And it starts assigning value to digital things and objects once again, and it’s just beyond exciting. Justin, give people a handoff to, if they’re interested in, in learning more about Zion too yourself, anything that you wanna highlight.

[00:53:45] Preston Pysh: I know you mentioned your book. Give people some more information about you and then we’ll have it in the show notes.

[00:53:50] Justin Rezvani: Yeah, I mean, so our website is pretty simple, just And our app is available across, you know, at this point probably when this gets released across all the available app stores, all the docs are gonna be available.

[00:54:04] Justin Rezvani: Our GitHub is get Zion You can find me anywhere if you Google my name, Justin Revan. I’m, I am great. I’m graciously allowed to be on so many podcasts and I talk about the company all the time in so many different places. I will say, one ask I do have is that, you know, as we’re growing, we are looking for some more technical leadership to, to help me run this business.

[00:54:26] Justin Rezvani: And I think what’s what’s really blessed about Zion is that like we’re very well capitalized. As of next week we will be profitable, which is unheard of in this world. That is unheard . Yeah. We’re, we’re making quite a bit of revenue and we’re making quite a bit of, you know, movement in the space. You know, I am looking for, for people that, that want to technically come on this journey with us, and I have a long-term outlook of this business, and so we always need support in that.

[00:54:51] Justin Rezvani: But you can find me anywhere. It’s Justin Rezvani. I’m on Twitter, I’m on on everything. And I’m, I will never ask you about investment advice on any tweets. I’m verified on every channel, so even Instagram.

[00:55:03] Preston Pysh: Justin, thank you for your time. Very informative and it’s gonna be exciting to see how this progresses moving forward.

[00:55:09] Preston Pysh: So thanks for making.

[00:55:11] Justin Rezvani: It’s a blessing, sir. Thank you.

[00:55:13] Preston Pysh: If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that.

[00:55:33] Preston Pysh: And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm. So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening and I’ll catch you again next week.

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  • Justin’s Social Application: Zion.


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