[00:02:51] Miljan Braticevic: So it’s kind of like Bitcoin, like we as Bitcoiners, we, we saw with Bitcoin, kind of, we ignored it multiple times over the years. And one thing that kind of, there was supposed to be a fad last time we saw it. Well, six months ago or a couple of years ago, it seems to be still around. And not only that it’s around, but it’s like bigger and more, more vibrant and more sophisticated than the last time we saw it.

[00:03:16] Miljan Braticevic: So that’s the vibe I’m getting from Nostr. And by the way, this, this is what happened to me. I discovered Nostr for the first time, or kind of, I came across Nostr for the first time in mid 22, the 2022. And I wrote it off. I kind of discarded it as something that’s that doesn’t have much of a chance of succeeding, even though I was keenly interested in decentralized publishing protocols and decentralized social media and things like that.

[00:03:45] Miljan Braticevic: I kind of took a cursory look, you know, hand up. I totally missed it. Didn’t take a close enough of a look. and kind of wrote it off. And then six months later is that time that you’re mentioning there December of last year when you know, people started making a little bit more noise about it. Jack Dorsey talked about it on Twitter.

[00:04:09] Miljan Braticevic: Elon included it in his famous tweet about the types of social media platforms that are not acceptable to be linked to. So that was, that was a funny one for sure where kind of he listed, I don’t know, like some of the major ones, like I think it was Reddit and Facebook and Mastodon and Nostr.

[00:04:33] Miljan Braticevic: And the 25 people on Nostr were like, what, why is he mentioning us, like. Talk about some signal. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So for sure that made a lot of us pay attention. So I was in that cohort. I created my kind of Nostr account, my Nostr key pair on Damus, not even a year ago. I think my anniversary is in like 10 days.

[00:04:57] Miljan Braticevic: So to go back to your question, what is Nostr? Why is it important? I think it’s, it’s useful to back up a little bit and talk about, kind of assess the situation that we have with the web in general, with the internet. It has evolved or maybe devolved, depending on your point of view, into this state where we have.

[00:05:17] Miljan Braticevic: A small number of silos that are completely centrally controlled and we’re talking about Twitter slash X being one of those silos Facebook and their kind of group of companies, you know, a group of products like Instagram and threads and so forth being another silo. And this handful of big players exercises absolute control over those silos, in the sense that when you create an account on Twitter, you don’t own that account, Twitter owns it, Twitter has full control over their account, that account, they can take it away from you, they can shut it down, they can remove some of your posts, So they have complete control over the account, over the content that you publish, as well as all of your connections, all of your followers and people you follow.

[00:06:07] Miljan Braticevic: This is the status quo. Vast majority of the internet operates this way. Vast majority of the users, internet users, use internet this way. And regardless of what you think about the current owner of those platforms, Twitter has definitely become a de facto global town square where we as a global community of humans discuss things important things and announce important things on Twitter or X regardless of what you think of the current owner of this platform, the problem is that there is an owner and for something like this, this should be a common good. Clearly you know, if the question is who should own the global town square, The correct answer is nobody. We should all collectively own it and we should definitely be in control over our own identities on this network and our own content and so forth.

[00:07:06] Miljan Braticevic: So then the next step, you know, this was identified as a problem obviously years ago, much before we ran into the latest problems with censorship, with like severe censorship in recent years and so forth. So one of the approaches that was taken a few years back was this federated approach where you create this somewhat decentralized publishing platform where instead of having one big server and one big owner of everything, you have a collection of smaller servers, smaller owners that are kind of all connected to each other in some ways.

[00:07:45] Miljan Braticevic: But with this federated approach with Mastodon, you have a situation where instead of one big dictator, you get you know, a number of smaller dictators who also have absolute control over their own. instances. So on Mastodon or these federated types of systems, the way it works is you as a user, you have to pick which instance you’re going to create your account on.

[00:08:13] Miljan Braticevic: You say, I’d like to, you know, use maybe bitcoinhackers. org was one instance. So you have to select one and then you create your account there. Your account is then posted there and is able to access content and accounts from other instances. So there’s that connection there. However, the administrator of that instance has absolute control over all of the accounts and content that are created on their instance.

[00:08:40] Miljan Braticevic: So they have the ability to shut down your account. To censor any posts you have, et cetera, et cetera. And also, you know, when, when they shut down your account, you immediately lose all of your social connections. That’s an improvement in some ways, but also maybe a step back in some other ways, because then, you know, like when you have one global kind of moderator, so to speak, they are held to a pretty high standard and they’re being watched by everyone.

[00:09:08] Miljan Braticevic: Whereas when you have a number of smaller ones, they can pretty much do whatever they want. And there’ve been some horror stories there. So this kind of problem area has been known to developers for a while now. We’ve been all searching for a better system. And then I believe Nostr represents not only the next evolution, but maybe the protocol that we’ve all been looking for.

[00:09:32] Miljan Braticevic: I don’t know if maybe you want me to, you know, dive in and, and explain how Nostr works or.

[00:09:38] Preston Pysh: No, what I think is important for people to really kind of wrap their head around is just the, the problem definition upfront, before we even start talking about like all the solutions and kind of like what’s popping out of this.

[00:09:50] Preston Pysh: The reason that we’ve arrived at Nostr is because of all of these things that you’ve described. I know as a, you know, you grow up as a kid and you talk about these ideas of free speech and how important they are. But until recently, I’d say COVID was probably like this moment in time where there is this giant light being shined on this cockroach in the corner of holy moly, like the government is truly like manipulating speech here.

[00:10:17] Preston Pysh: Like in a major way, like people were losing their accounts. They’re getting deleted. And like, you couldn’t say back in 2020 that COVID came out of a lab, right? Whether you believe that or not, or you think that’s total, you know, hypocrisy or insanity, if you said that online. Your account, the tweet or the post was either deleted, you were banned, you were given a timeout for 30 days unless you deleted the post, and it was kind of like, hold on a second, how is this happening on Facebook, Twitter, you name it, every, every single social platform where you thought you were going to be able to speak your mind and your opinions it was censored to the nth degree.

[00:11:04] Preston Pysh: And so I was just sitting there and I’m like, how is this being done? How is the government able to influence this when these are supposedly public free and open companies, right? Like, how are they getting them all to do it? And so, You know, I guess I’m going to go off on a little bit of a tangent here of like my own personal opinions.

[00:11:23] Preston Pysh: And I’m curious if, if you agree with this logic, but I’m looking at it and I’m saying, none of these companies are privately owned at this point. And Twitter is now today, but not back in COVID. These are all publicly traded businesses that have a board of directors that, you know, when you look at the ownership of that equity of all of these businesses, It’s completely been decentralized.

[00:11:46] Preston Pysh: Like as an individual, you might have a couple thousand shares of this company and the real shareholders of these companies are the big banks. It’s the black rocks of the world. It’s the Goldman Sachs of the world. It’s all of these too big to fail banks. that have the shares into these ETF vehicles.

[00:12:05] Preston Pysh: And so who sits on the board? Who’s telling that board what to do? It’s the big bankers that have a lion’s share of the voting rights on the directions of these companies. And so they’re sitting on these boards and then they’re putting these people in place. to be able to implement the wishes of what these big banks that are in total bed with the government.

[00:12:29] Preston Pysh: And if you don’t think that these big banks are in bed with the government, like, I don’t know what to tell you, but like, look at the response in 2008. Look at the response in 2020. Look at the Silicon Valley bank scenario where the government just steps in and is like, well, we’re going to save them today.

[00:12:46] Preston Pysh: It doesn’t matter whether they’re making bad decisions. So if people don’t think that the government’s looking for something in return for these, this relationship that’s happening between two big defailed banks and government, like I’m sorry, you’re kidding yourself when I’m looking at who is the string puller on these policies and I have gone off way off on a tangent here.

[00:13:07] Preston Pysh: I apologize.

[00:13:07] Miljan Braticevic: I have to get this possibly, this is possibly the main point here.

[00:13:12] Preston Pysh: So yeah, please go ahead. I’ve got to get this off my chest. I’m looking at who’s the string puller of like, the people that are taking my rights and everybody else’s rights away from them. And it’s this relationship between, and you can say it’s a government agency, I’m just going to say government at large.

[00:13:30] Preston Pysh: In bed with two big to fail banks that actually control the voting rights of the platforms of Facebook, LinkedIn, you name it, every single social company out there to then put these people in key executive positions that are the speech moderators inside of these organizations. And we know that this exists because as soon as Elon bought Twitter and took it private, which I don’t think anybody thought was going to happen because of the, the price tag that for what these companies are worth, but he did it.

[00:14:03] Preston Pysh: And as soon as he did it and he, and he peered into these puppets that were sitting inside of these companies and the workload that was being done, like it was like cockroaches came all running out of, out of the building all at once, right? Now, like just recently, we saw Andrew Sorkin and Elon on stage in what I think, you know, I shared this with a family member, the person that I shared it with, their response back to me was, well, that was really weird.

[00:14:35] Preston Pysh: Like that was just strange. Like what were they even talking about Preston? And I said, they’re talking about free speech in like. They’re talking about basically the banks and the government’s really upset that that Elon’s able to run the public square in whatever way he wants without them being able to like puppeteer it anymore.

[00:14:56] Preston Pysh: And that like, that’s what it’s all about. And I’m saying all of this because if you’re listening to this conversation and we’re, we’re talking about this protocol called Nostr and it sounds really obscure and like, oh yeah, there’s, there’s not nearly the amount of people on it today as there is Twitter or Facebook or whatever.

[00:15:15] Preston Pysh: It’s vital that people understand that there is a massive attack vector for traditional social media and free speech. And when you say that this might be the first time we’ve had a technical solution, that there’s a free speech protocol, which is Nostr, I think that it is so important, like beat the table important for people to listen up, take this very seriously because I, you know, how, what happens, I mean, we’re seeing it right now.

[00:15:48] Preston Pysh: All the advertisers, Disney, all of them are pulling their funding out of Twitter because they want Elon to fumble the Twitter football. And for it to go back into the public markets so that BlackRock and Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan and all the big banks can control the public square once again with the government at their side.

[00:16:07] Preston Pysh: Correct? What, what am I missing in that description?

[00:16:11] Miljan Braticevic: I agree with pretty much everything you just said. And I think that if we were to pinpoint the problem here, the actual problem. It is the fact that these silos, these platforms have the capability to do these things, to have the capability to censor speech, to block accounts, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:16:32] Miljan Braticevic: I used to think about censorship in terms of people being censored. People getting censored being the victims here, but my thinking about it has evolved a little bit and now I also consider people doing the censoring as the victims of the system as well, because if you have the capability to do it.

[00:16:53] Miljan Braticevic: There will be powerful actors that will show up that will make you use that capability you have. And this is what we’re, we’ve seen, you know, like, I’m sure that people who founded Twitter, you know, Jack Dorsey and the company, like, this is not what they had in mind for their product, right? In fact, initially they wanted to build it as a protocol and had it quite open in terms of APIs and things like that.

[00:17:17] Miljan Braticevic: So it was quite a vibrant development platform in the early days. But Jack Dorsey talks about this and he, he talks about how one thing led to another and these kind of incentives compounded, you know, and then you had the situation where you have a number of powerful, powerful shareholders who want to kind of throw their weight around.

[00:17:42] Miljan Braticevic: And then you also have advertisers who your kind of your entire model, revenue model is hinging on big advertisers. So they get to throw their weight around as well.

[00:17:55] Preston Pysh: And it’s important to note that these advertisers that are throwing their weight around, they’re in the exact same scenario as the social media empires themselves.

[00:18:05] Preston Pysh: Disney, Uni, like go through the list of these large cap entities that are saying, Oh yeah, we’re not going to advertise on Twitter anymore. Well, who manages their board? Who sits on all the voting rights of these companies? It’s the too big to fail banks yet again, through the ETF vehicles. Right? So how hard is it for, and you’re seeing Elon, say Bob Iger from Disney a lot, but is Bob really the guy at the, in the board meeting that’s controlling really kind of the shares of the business?

[00:18:40] Preston Pysh: That he’s, I don’t think he is. I think it’s the too big to fail banks that are managing all those voting, all that voting, that pushing that direction upon Disney to pull its advertising on Twitter. And it doesn’t take far when you actually understand how convoluted the voting rights are on large cap businesses in the country these days.

[00:19:03] Preston Pysh: They’re sitting literally right there on Wall Street with the few people running these really large banks that are in bed with the government. So, sorry to interrupt you. I’m just It’s the day after Christmas too, like the people are hearing this and so Merry Christmas everybody the, the government and the big banks are trying to steal your free speech.

[00:19:24] Preston Pysh: We think it’s a major issue and I, I guess I woke up swinging this morning. I’m going to try to get out of this conversation and let you talk more, I’m just, I’m fired up. I want to highlight one other thing. I wrote an article kind of outlining a lot of this in Bitcoin Magazine. I’m going to have a link to that in the show notes, kind of like laying out at least what my thesis is as to why we’re seeing this attack against free speech.

[00:19:47] Preston Pysh: We’ll have a bunch of other things throughout this conversation for people to check out, especially Millions client that interfaces with Nostr, which we’re about to talk about. So. Anything else that you want to highlight here that you think is important for people to kind of understand the problem definition of what it is you’re trying to help solve, along with many other developers in the Nostr space Miljan?

[00:20:11] Miljan Braticevic: No, no, I think we covered it well. I think now that we’ve delivered the black pill it’s, it’s time to bring out the white pill and, and essentially talk about the solution because we do have a lot of good news to share here for people who haven’t been paying attention to Nostr and are curious about the possibilities of solving this, this type of thing.

[00:20:32] Miljan Braticevic: As you’ve outlined, the problem is overt centralization of the systems that we have. And with Nostr, we have the ability to decentralize. And you mentioned previously that with Nostr, we have a technology that’s able to do it. Yes, that’s true. And I’ll go over kind of how this technology works. But it’s better than that, even not only do we have the technology, the protocol itself, but we have the actual network of people and the ecosystem of applications and services that has already sprouted.

[00:21:06] Miljan Braticevic: And all of this kind of is unfolding in front of our eyes. And it’s really glorious to see how from humble beginnings, you know, things are organically evolving and growing. Where you don’t have any central player controlling or, or orchestrating any of this. It’s just a number of individuals doing what’s in their own self interest, whether they’re developers building applications and services on top of this protocol or users who value sovereignty on the internet and are willing, you know, this early cohort of users was so motivated that they were willing to suffer through some substandard user experience to actually get onboarded onto this network and start posting content and collaborating with each other. So the network has grown from just a few people to a few hundred thousand people who are now active on the network.

[00:22:09] Miljan Braticevic: And again, this is not in absolute terms, this is not some amazing number, you know, Meta will come out and say, we’ve just onboarded millions of people onto threads or whatever. It’s early days and we’re growing the network effects of this kind of nascent network. What’s important here and what’s noteworthy is that there are a few hundred thousand individuals who value their internet sovereignty enough to have done the work.

[00:22:36] Miljan Braticevic: and are using their own self controlled accounts to collaborate with each other and post content and help the network grow. That’s really amazing to watch unfold. I’ve been extremely humbled to be a part of it from the beginning. And back a year ago when I, when I really took a closer look and started kind of reading through the protocol, and realize that this actually is going to work back then, the, as you, as you remember yourself, Preston, the tools were quite primitive.

[00:23:08] Miljan Braticevic: So my, my thought was like, okay, I think this is going to work, but I wonder how good it can get in terms of actual UX for, for, you know users who might not be so passionate about sovereignty, but just want to use high quality products. and access high quality content. So this was kind of the idea behind Primal.

[00:23:29] Miljan Braticevic: I immediately had an itch to start a company and start building a product that can kind of take the Nostr protocol and take it as far as, as we can possibly take it in terms of quality of UX performance and these types of things. So that new users that sign up have a similar experience as when signing up to some of the legacy media platforms, while also joining this new network and being able to be in control over their identity and their content and so forth.

[00:24:01] Preston Pysh: I want to give people an example of what you mean by this. So a year ago, whenever you signed up well, whenever you started interacting with Nostr. Like you would go to your Facebook page or your LinkedIn page. You, you go there and you upload a picture of yourself so people can visually see who they’re interacting with.

[00:24:22] Preston Pysh: Right. Something like that is just really simple to a person who’s been interacting with social media for years. Well, when you’re dealing with a truly decentralized protocol and you’re interacting with it, a lot of people were going over here and checking it out. I had people that listened to the conversation a year ago and they’re like trying it out and they go there and they’re like, How do I even get a picture of myself on there?

[00:24:45] Preston Pysh: I can’t figure out how to like do that. Right. And it sounds really-

[00:24:49] Miljan Braticevic: I forgot about that Preston. You’re right. It seems silly. It was pretty hard back then.

[00:24:54] Preston Pysh: Yes. It seems silly for people hearing like, what do you mean you couldn’t upload a picture? Well, let’s talk about technically what’s happening there.

[00:25:02] Preston Pysh: Like to upload a picture, where are you saving that picture? Well, if you’re on Facebook, you’re uploading it into Facebook’s servers that are then hosting the picture on your behalf. That takes up some amount of memory, not much, but it does require somebody to host that picture and then serve that picture whenever the inquiry is asked, what does this account look like?

[00:25:26] Preston Pysh: So, when people were coming to Nostr last year with some of the clients, because everything was just extremely clunky relative to where it is today, you had to host your own picture. So, you’d have to go post a picture in some other type of hosted provider, and then you’d have to point, here’s the address, where that picture is at on the internet, serve it up if a person’s looking for this public key that’s associated with who they are for their free speech.

[00:25:52] Preston Pysh: And like this stuff was truly just groundbreaking last year. And I think if a person looked at it a year ago and they tried it out, I know of, you know, at least five to 10 people that I interacted with a year ago, like, Oh, you got to try this out. This is really neat. It’s actual free and open speech. And they like tried it out and they’re like, Yeah, man, I’m sorry, like, this is really hard, and this is really confusing, I don’t even know how to get a picture of myself up there, like cool story, like, I’m glad you and your, your internet friends are having fun, but I don’t see this, like, working out, was basically the opinion, because they didn’t understand, like, how raw And how much still needed to be built for this to feel like their past experiences, but to your point that you just made, we’re here now, like your client alone, not even talking about any of the other, you know, numerous other clients that are out there.

[00:26:47] Preston Pysh: has taken a lot of that burden and it’s just kind of like melted away. And you don’t even know that that’s something that’s happening in the background on their behalf for them at this point. So talk to us a little bit about like those things that have just melted away over the past year.

[00:27:02] Miljan Braticevic: Yes. Thanks for reminding me.

[00:27:04] Miljan Braticevic: I think that was an interesting time for sure, because you had to do so much by hand, you really needed to be extremely motivated and tech savvy and, and then motivated some more. and then maybe come back to it the next day to fix stuff that was broken and stuff like that. What we’ve seen since then is such a large number of projects develop, people developing on Nostr, both a combination of client applications as well as services.

[00:27:33] Miljan Braticevic: What you’ve just described, where you need to upload your profile photo or you want to upload some media with your notes. Those notes need to, that media has to be hosted somewhere and there needs to be a service behind it that does those things rather than having just Facebook do everything. What’s actually happening on Nostr organically is people are identifying the need for the, the various services on Nostr and they’re building them up and standing them up.

[00:28:02] Miljan Braticevic: And application developers are making it easy to their users to pick which let’s say media hosting service they’d like to use within their clients. Of course, with some good defaults as well. The user experience now, like across the board for all the major Nostr clients is, I’ll say light years ahead of where we were one year ago, right?

[00:28:27] Miljan Braticevic: I think we’re approaching, I think with Primal, we’re able to get pretty close to. the sort of the legacy centrally controlled UX offered by those types of entities that have been added for 10 years, plus there are multi billion dollar companies. We within the Nostr community are very close, I think, to providing a similar level of user experience.

[00:28:50] Miljan Braticevic: And I would really advise people who haven’t taken a look at Nostr, let’s say in the last few months If you take another look, they’ll be surprised how, how much better everything is. But then, if you look at the trajectory, things are not going to stop here. And the amount of innovation and experimentation that’s happening on Nostr is off the charts, kind of on a greater magnitude than what’s happening inside these closed silo type of companies.

[00:29:18] Miljan Braticevic: Since Nostr is a permissionless protocol, anyone is able to publish anything they want on Nostr, but also anyone’s able to develop anything they want on Nostr. And since everything is allowed. Everything will be tried. So we’re, and we’re around to witness all of this unfold. And like developers are trying a ton of different things, most of which are probably not going to work out, but some.

[00:29:46] Miljan Braticevic: Will surprise us. Some types of features or products will surprise maybe even their creators at how well they stick. So I think the level of experimentation that we’re seeing on Nostr is already definitely orders of magnitude greater than on any other decentralized protocol that I’m aware of. But I’m going to make an argument that it’s also already bigger than what these massive centrally controlled companies are doing just by the nature of the way that features are developed in these big companies, right?

[00:30:18] Miljan Braticevic: I’ve worked at a big company too. I know how long it takes to take a feature, to get a feature out. The fact that we are, we as Nostr developers are free to do whatever we want and users are free to use which any product or service they wish, you know, users would naturally kind of vote with their feet and, or, or vote with their patron, patronage and, and the best products and services will bubble up to the top.

[00:30:45] Miljan Braticevic: And since most of them are built on as open source software, they will be replicated by other services and then upgraded from there. So I think the next, let’s say next year alone, I think is going to be quite interesting on Nostr.

[00:31:01] Preston Pysh: Miljan, I want to demo something for people. So they hear this, but kind of seeing it and hearing it real time can really kind of highlight what we’re talking about here.

[00:31:09] Preston Pysh: Do you have your phone close to you right now? I do. Okay. Pull it up, pull up your Primal app. And pull up your wallet inside your, your Primal app. And I want you just to hold up your phone to the camera so that people can see your wallet.

[00:31:27] Miljan Braticevic: Okay. And all right, let’s try it. By the way, guys, everybody should know that this was not rehearsed.

[00:31:34] Preston Pysh: This was not rehearsed. I’m literally coming up with this on the fly. Here’s mine. This is this, I went to Miljan’s page, just like on, and I got a little bit too much light there for people to see. How can I get, yeah, I might, I might have the same problem to be honest. Proof that, oh no, yours was, yours was good.

[00:31:51] Preston Pysh: Yours was good.

[00:31:52] Miljan Braticevic: Mine was good? Okay. Yeah.

[00:31:53] Preston Pysh: Okay. Okay. So I’m on Miljan’s page and I see this post that you had four, four days ago. You said working on a much nicer image viewer for the next iOS build. And there’s a little like lightning bolt icon next to his post, like you, what you would see on Twitter the, the interface is very similar to that.

[00:32:13] Preston Pysh: And so I’m going to go ahead and click that little lightning bolt and I just, it’s done. I sent in, you can see it on his phone, right? You see how, what changed on his phone? There’s 101 sats there being displayed in his wallet right now because I basically liked his post with sats. Miljan, it worked. You can turn around the phone and look at it.

[00:32:34] Preston Pysh: People saw it real time. How fast that was is I just literally was scrolling. I saw basically a like button, but it’s a zap button. I have my default set to 101 sats. I clicked it. You saw immediately send settlement instantaneous. How did I pull up his page? I just typed in million in the search and it was the first thing that came up and I selected it and I’m seeing all of his posts and I could like every one of them.

[00:33:02] Preston Pysh: Do this. Pull up, pull up your phone. I swear to God, we’re just doing this on the fly. Pull up your phone. I’m going to just go down.

[00:33:07] Miljan Braticevic: Maybe Preston, we should quit while we’re ahead, huh? I’m just kidding.

[00:33:12] Preston Pysh: So hold up your phone so people can see this. I’m just going to go down. The wallet or something? No, the wallet again, so people can kind of see.

[00:33:19] Preston Pysh: I’m going to just scroll through your homepage. Okay. And I’m just going to like your posts. There’s the first one I’m going to like, I’m looking at the screen. Oh, there it goes. It hit. I’m going to like the next one. I’m going to scroll down some more. Oh, I like that one. I like this one. And each time I’m doing this, I’m sending and people can see real time.

[00:33:39] Preston Pysh: There’s just, the sats are just literally flowing to his phone, right? This is crazy. This is totally insane that we can, like, I’m interacting at his, like, if we weren’t having this conversation, right. And I’m, I’m reading somebody else’s feed. I’m like, Oh, I like that. I’m going to S I’m going to send them 4 cents or whatever that amount is worth.

[00:34:00] Preston Pysh: Right. I think it’s about 4 cents that I just kept zapping to him. I’m literally streaming him money because I’m liking his posts on his social media account. People can see how fast. You know, if you’re listening to this podcast and not watching the video, go to around the 30 minute mark on this discussion and watch this on YouTube.

[00:34:19] Preston Pysh: So you can see how ridiculously seamless that was that we just did. And it was completely on the fly. We would, we didn’t even plan to do this to show you how seamless this is. It has changed by a hundred X to where we were a year ago when we were talking about Nostr and like what it represents. And like, this isn’t even the part that, let’s talk about like where you think future capabilities can be because there’s already a Nostr nest, right?

[00:34:48] Preston Pysh: That’s similar to like Twitter spaces that has organically been stood up that you could integrate into your app. I think some others may have integrated them into their clients, correct? We could do phone calls, like there’s there’s businesses that are streaming, like I could set a rate for the amount, like, I don’t want to take phone calls from people unless I’m making 5 a minute or whatever it might be, and my phone number’s never given up, but people could go to Nostr and they could find Preston and be like, there’s a little phone button there, and if, and if he answers, it’s this rate per minute.

[00:35:22] Preston Pysh: Like, all of this stuff can get integrated into this, into the future. What are some of the capabilities that you’re most excited about or that you think are going to be game changers beyond the Zaps that we were just kind of showcasing?

[00:35:36] Miljan Braticevic: Before we get into that, I’d like to dwell a little bit more on the previous point.

[00:35:41] Miljan Braticevic: Yeah. What we’ve just demoed here. Yeah. Yeah. Because that’s a perfect example of the types of things where we as a kind of like a global monster development community are overtaking the legacy platforms in terms of features and UX. You will not see this on Twitter. You will not see anything like this on like in terms of real time zapping, real time tipping and with an integrated wallet doesn’t yet exist on Twitter, even though they’ve been talking about it for years.

[00:36:12] Miljan Braticevic: And how did we get to this point on Nostr? Well, Will from Damus came up with this feature, he called it Zaps to send a small amount of Bitcoin to the author of a certain note. And then early iteration of the iterations of that feature involved kind of like an external wallet. So you have a Bitcoin lightning wallet that supports a certain special way to connect to Nostr applications.

[00:36:41] Miljan Braticevic: And so you’re kind of interfacing between your social media and Nostr client and your Bitcoin lightning wallet to be able to pull all of this together. And so many people started using that. and the feature became so popular that other Nostr clients implemented it. And then we took that to another level where we said, wait, let’s see what happens if we integrate a lightning wallet into the social media app so that people can easily get onboarded, activate their wallet, maybe purchase some sats if they don’t have any through an in app purchase.

[00:37:17] Miljan Braticevic: And a couple of minutes later, they can participate in this Nostr social kind of activity, which is just like throwing zaps at each other and kind of supporting each other and kind of signaling their signaling, which type of content they feel is important or relevant by actually sending value over the internet.

[00:37:39] Miljan Braticevic: This is a perfect example of, but none of this was centrally planned and Will had a good idea. He decided to implement it because nobody could stop him. It’s an open protocol. So he wrote this Nostr improvement possibility kind of document saying, Hey, this is how I think Zaps should work on Nostr.

[00:38:00] Miljan Braticevic: Then other Nostr developers kind of contributed to it. And then this standard was created and other Nostr developers started using that specification that’s that open standard to implement the same feature. So any Nostr client will be able to participate in this. And we’re only, we’re only a few months into this.

[00:38:25] Miljan Braticevic: So if you extrapolate. Where we go from here in terms of the feature set and the polish and, and the capabilities that we’re going to bring to our users, I think the future is looking really bright. So the white pill is delivered here too.

[00:38:42] Preston Pysh: When I think about what this represents. Jack Dorsey. He’s, he’s very involved with Nostr.

[00:38:50] Preston Pysh: There’s a guy that if I said, Jack, what’s, I need to know your checking account number because I want to send you some money, right? There has to be some type of interaction. There has to be some type of engagement to pass along that data to me. Then I have to go get a bank to then potentially But again, I don’t mean to demo things because most of our listeners are audio listeners.

[00:39:12] Preston Pysh: They’re not video listeners. But this is, this stuff is so important and so easy to demonstrate why it’s so powerful. Again, I got my app. I got the app pulled up. Okay. I went into the search. I type in Jack, right? There’s Jack. I see him in my social setting. I’m going to send Jack a hundred sats. Boom. And here it goes.

[00:39:36] Preston Pysh: That, he now has that. I have no idea what his checking account number or anything, but I’m able to find him practically immediately on my phone. I’m able to click on one button and it’s saying, how much do you want to send Jack? Jack, you can send me the 100 sats back if you’re listening. I want my four cents back sir.

[00:39:58] Preston Pysh: But it was immediate. And I could go, I could close this out and I could say, all right, well, who else is in my list? Oh, there’s Lynn. I see Lynn. Okay. There’s a hundred stats for Lynn. I have access to every single person’s bank account information without knowing what it is to send them any amount instantaneously without anybody’s permission anywhere in the world.

[00:40:22] Preston Pysh: It’s insane. This is nuts. How does anybody think they can compete with something like this?

[00:40:28] Miljan Braticevic: And it’s all open and accessible to everyone. It’s really amazing being on the Nostr network, isn’t it? Because you can have, as a part of your Nostr profile, you have this optional kind of setting that you can set, the field that you can set, which is your Bitcoin Lightning address.

[00:40:45] Miljan Braticevic: And most Nostr users have this set to their Lightning Wallet address. And so therefore, Nostr becomes your kind of global address book of people you’ve never met before. You’re highly likely to be able to send them some value over the internet. This is really groundbreaking, and this is why Zaps work, by the way, but what you demonstrated there, you can just use the wallet to initiate a send transaction and find somebody on the Nostr network and send some value back and forth along with the message.

[00:41:18] Preston Pysh: When I think about an unbanked country, where you go to some country and they’re just, they have no access to banking, but they have access to a smartphone. Like, I just don’t know how you stop this. This is like a freight train. Why would I, why would I be, is there a world in which that is a wrong, you know, what am I missing?

[00:41:41] Preston Pysh: I guess is, is, is the question there.

[00:41:44] Miljan Braticevic: Bitcoin and Nostr at the protocol level are extremely robust. At the protocol level, we’ve covered Bitcoin over the years in quite a bit of detail, so no need to get into that now, but Nostr you know, maybe a lot more people need to get up to speed with, Nostr has no gatekeepers on the protocol level.

[00:42:04] Miljan Braticevic: Maybe this is a good time to kind of explain how Nostr works.

[00:42:07] Preston Pysh: Yeah, let’s do that.

[00:42:08] Miljan Braticevic: Let’s do that. Right. And by the way you don’t need to know how Nostr works in order to use it, just like you don’t need to know how the car works in order to drive. But for the, for, for the purpose of this discussion, where we’re kind of analyzing pros and cons of different approaches of publishing online content and maintaining our online presence, it’s good to kind of have a high level understanding of, of the Nostr protocol.

[00:42:34] Miljan Braticevic: And Nostr is so simple that anyone can understand it at the high level. I think it’s so simple. You don’t need to be super technical. Here’s how, here’s how it goes. So there are three main concepts in Nostr. The first concept is instead of a username and password, users have a key pair, a public key and a private key.

[00:42:56] Miljan Braticevic: The second concept is we use apps, so that’s a concept that everyone’s familiar with. We use apps or Nostr clients to access Nostr content as well as create and publish content. So when we create a note using our Nostr app, We create the content and then the app signs that note with our private key so that everyone on the Nostr network knows that it came from this particular user, let’s say Preston.

[00:43:25] Miljan Braticevic: And then the app sends that note to a set of relays, which is the concept number three. That’s the final concept. A relay is a very simple server, which is able to accept notes that have been published by users and store them. as well as respond to requests. So if I hit up a relay and if I say, Hey, do you know anything about Preston?

[00:43:49] Miljan Braticevic: Here’s his public key. The relay will respond with the list of messages that it has. So a key point here is that you as a user, you publish to a set of relays, not to one specific relay. Therefore your content and, and the kind of metadata about you is replicated on the Nostr network on as many relays as you wish.

[00:44:13] Miljan Braticevic: Usually people have maybe a dozen relays set up. That’s what I have. People, sometimes people have more, but the point is you get to pick which relays you want to publish to. And you can change that list of relays anytime you want. So any individual relay can go down at any time for any reason without affecting the entire network.

[00:44:36] Miljan Braticevic: And that’s it. That’s the entirety of the Nostr protocol. The rest of it are just details about you know, message formats and things like that, which we don’t need to get into. But essentially this whole notion that a user has a key, which completely controls their identity and is able to use an Nostr app to publish to a set of relays is what gives us this kind of level of redundancy and censorship resistance, because, and this is all kind of on an open kind of standard on an open protocol where anyone is allowed to, anyone can create a key pair.

[00:45:13] Miljan Braticevic: Anyone can run an app, anyone can build an app, anyone can run a relay, anyone can build relay software, and anyone can build sort of services on top of these, this kind of core layer infrastructure to make things easier and simpler for users. You know, like we’re already at the point where users don’t necessarily need to handle their keys too much.

[00:45:38] Miljan Braticevic: You know, like once you create the account, you have your, your key stored, you can, you can store it in a safe place, but then you use a Nostr client, just like you would use any other social media client.

[00:45:50] Preston Pysh: As a person who runs my own Bitcoin full node, I back up, there’s somebody made a Nostr relay, basically a turnkey relay for my node.

[00:46:02] Preston Pysh: So I downloaded the software on the, on my Bitcoin full node and just synced it to the content that I’ve posted on Nostr and now I personally have a backup of every single thing that I’ve ever posted on Nostr running on my own mini server. And I point my client to look at that so that I know for a fact my speech can never be canceled because I have it all backed up.

[00:46:28] Preston Pysh: If, just to kind of show a comparison to legacy social media, If you want all of your posts that you ever did on Twitter or Facebook or whatever, you have to go to them and beg for them to send you the index files of all of your previously generated comments. Twitter will do this if you request it today, but let’s say they don’t like you, or let’s say that they have a change of heart, or let’s say they delete your account because you said something that they didn’t like.

[00:47:00] Preston Pysh: It’s gone forever and you’re never gonna get it back again unless you had backed it up along the way, every single post. Right?

[00:47:06] Miljan Braticevic: The point is that you’re continuously asking for permission. Yes. You’re ask, you’re asking for permission every time you log in. May I please log in? You’re asking for permission.

[00:47:16] Miljan Braticevic: Anytime you publish anything, will you please publish this for me? You are implicitly asking for permission every time your content is accessed by other people. you know, will you please make sure that people can access my notes or my posts on, on, on X, et cetera, et cetera. You’re constantly asking for permission, where on a permissionless protocol, you don’t need to do that.

[00:47:38] Miljan Braticevic: You are sovereign of that protocol.

[00:47:41] Preston Pysh: This is why Bitcoiners love this because it’s, it’s the same thing as, as permissionless money, but it’s permissionless speech. And it allows us to coordinate activities above the money layer, which would be the final settlement of our energy exchange. And it’s just, it’s just so dang exciting.

[00:47:59] Preston Pysh: Miljan, what is it that you’re looking at on the horizon in the coming year to three years on Nostr that you think even people using it today aren’t seeing? Like, what is it that you’re seeing coming that’s really exciting to you personally? Wow.

[00:48:16] Miljan Braticevic: Nostr is moving so quickly that it’s like, it seems impossible for me to even think about it in terms of like three years out.

[00:48:23] Miljan Braticevic: I tried to think about what happens in the next few months or over the next year. And honestly, like I’m in Nostr full time. And just keeping up with high quality projects of, you know, keeping up with what other people are building is almost a full time job. That’s how much activity we have. In terms of things that I find exciting, we should say that replicating and kind of expanding on the social media systems that exist today is just one of the possible applications of Nostr.

[00:48:55] Miljan Braticevic: It’s one that has taken off in terms of users actually seem to use that type of capability quite a bit. But Nostr, the protocol itself is actually more generic and capable of implementing a number of different types of applications. And we’re already seeing some of the early kind of examples of some of those with like marketplaces and you know, like auction sites and things like Patreon replicas and so forth.

[00:49:24] Miljan Braticevic: So I think that the one way to think about it would be that anything that has a social graph, like when you, when you look at the ecosystem of apps and services on the internet. Many of them have a social graph, but they’re all closed. They all have their, like, as we said, like an internal social graphs.

[00:49:44] Miljan Braticevic: So if you, if you have, let’s say Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, they all support social graphs internally, but they’re not, they’re completely separate from each other. So anything that has a social graph, I think eventually will get consumed by Nostr because every, let’s say if you’re building a professional, you know, the social site, like a LinkedIn type of site on Nostr, if you’re a developer of that type of a service, you will leverage the open social graph that already exists on Nostr.

[00:50:17] Miljan Braticevic: You will promote your product, obviously, to sign up users and by signing up users to, you know, Nostr version of LinkedIn, you’re growing the network for everyone and you’re adding kind of gravity to the network and adding network effects for all of the other apps that are building on Nostr. So when this, like when you play this out over the years, you can see how Nostr has the potential to grow, to outgrow all of the silos and, and essentially, eventually to make the silos look silly because of how close they are.

[00:50:54] Preston Pysh: One of the ideas that I know Jack had thrown out there was putting GitHub into Nostr somehow or leveraging Nostr to create a decentralized version of GitHub. What’s your opinions on that? What’s the kind of status? Is anybody actually working on trying to achieve that today? And I bring it up just as like an example of what you’re talking about on that last point.

[00:51:19] Miljan Braticevic: So that’s a great example, Preston. I think it’s, it’s an example that illustrates the level of versatility of Nostr as a protocol, the fact that you actually can implement something as complex as GitHub on Nostr. I can’t think of too many applications that would be more complex than that, actually, that are being currently discussed.

[00:51:39] Miljan Braticevic: So I’m not aware of anybody really diving in deeply to do that. There have been some guys tinkering about it, around it. But the need is there. So the pain point is there, you know, GitHub is currently controlled by Microsoft and there haven’t been major issues around censorship on GitHub, but there have been some.

[00:52:01] Miljan Braticevic: So the pain is not like super high at the moment, but you know, the, the motivation of developers is sometimes is, is really as a result of the pain that we experienced out there. In fact, you mentioned the censorship around COVID. At the beginning of the show, and I kind of speak with a lot of Nostr developers privately and we, we kind of, I have a feeling that we wouldn’t have Nostr the way in the shape that we do have today, if we hadn’t experienced that level of censorship around COVID and other topics, it was really like, that’s the reaction that’s, that’s, this is what, this is kind of the outcome in the free market.

[00:52:43] Miljan Braticevic: That we should be very you know, optimistic about.

[00:52:47] Preston Pysh: I love that. You’re, you’re exactly right. I think that that was a major catalyst for people just wake. I know it woke me up big time, like what in the world is happening? Let’s talk just briefly here about content moderation. So some people would look at this and say, all right, so you can go on to this protocol and say anything you want.

[00:53:10] Preston Pysh: And there’s no, I’m going to put consequence in air quotes here because I could generate a private key, public key pair, log into this with as much encryption as a, as a, as one could muster, say the most obscene things possible. and tag other pub keys that have accounts so that people you do that so people could see these obscene things that I’d be saying and nobody could ever know what that who was behind the person that was saying these things.

[00:53:45] Preston Pysh: Some people would have an issue with that. What do you say to the person that has an issue with that? And if a person does have an issue with that, how is it remedied?

[00:53:54] Miljan Braticevic: That’s a profound question. So first of all, we need to recognize that at the protocol layer, there are no gatekeepers. That’s the only way something like this can work.

[00:54:04] Miljan Braticevic: So, so there is, there isn’t anything at the Nostr protocol layer that would prevent you from publishing content that many or most or everyone might think is inappropriate and unacceptable. And I think, you know, we, we can all come up with examples of that type of content. How do you provide content moderation on such a radically open network?

[00:54:27] Miljan Braticevic: There’s a number of ways. But what’s important is that the tools to provide, to kind of control moderation settings should be in the hands of the user. I’ll kind of break it down into a few different categories. So the first category is what Nostr, the capabilities that Nostr protocol itself gives you.

[00:54:49] Miljan Braticevic: So Nostr allows you to have a mute list. The list of Nostr accounts whose content you don’t wish to see. So anyone in Nostr can have that, you can use your client application to add accounts and kind of manage your own mute list. Now, this only goes so far. It’s definitely not sufficient to deal with bots, with spam, with other inappropriate content, because it is so easy to create these key pairs and create new accounts that are post content that you don’t wish to see that you haven’t muted yet. A number of services is kind of sprouting out to help with this situation. So with at Primal, we give you the ability to not only define your own mute list, but also subscribe to other people’s mute lists. So you kind of tap into the wisdom of the crowd where I trust your judgment Preston, so I’ll, I’ll just subscribe to your mute list.

[00:55:47] Miljan Braticevic: And I might do the same for like a few dozen of my kind of in close friends. So that way we kind of leverage each other’s work on kind of identifying. inappropriate content or inappropriate accounts that we consider, you know, in our opinion, we consider inappropriate because there isn’t such a thing as absolute answer here.

[00:56:09] Miljan Braticevic: We’re trying to get away from the systems where we have one arbiter of truth and want somebody telling us, Oh, this is you know, this is what we consider to be acceptable today. It’s, we are kind of moving away from those systems. So, to back up, you have your own mute list, on Primal you can subscribe to other people’s mute lists.

[00:56:29] Miljan Braticevic: And then we, at Primal, we offer services that use AI and other kind of methods to identify, to classify content, to identify spam content, to identify not safe for work content, etc. And at Primal, you can opt in to subscribe to those lists. So you can say, yeah, I’m not interested in, I’d like to subscribe to Primal’s spam list.

[00:56:58] Miljan Braticevic: Because it’s so easy to spam on Nostr and you kind of need, you need machines to be able to deal with this rather than trying to do this manually. But the point here is that it’s the user’s choice and the user can say, yes, I actually will subscribe to Primal’s, you know, spam list or I will not. Spam filter, right?

[00:57:18] Miljan Braticevic: I might choose another service somewhere else where we’re not there yet, but this is kind of the, the ideal, this is the direction we’re going in with Primal and other clients as well, where you build an open source client, where you create, you have, you provide access to all kinds of custom feeds and these type of filtering services and so forth.

[00:57:44] Miljan Braticevic: But then you also enable users to pick from third party services for, for their own algorithmic feeds or filtering lists and things like that. And then when we expose our own services, we do it in a standard way so that other clients can consume those and users can select kind of pick and choose which services they wish to subscribe to.

[00:58:11] Miljan Braticevic: So this, I think, is the internet we all always wanted as opposed to centrally controlled systems that we kind of are subject to until recently.

[00:58:24] Preston Pysh: I want to I’m sorry. I said that was my last question. I got one more. One of the things that I’ve noticed between Twitter and using the Primo app and, and Nostr, the posts don’t seem to be anything similar.

[00:58:41] Preston Pysh: Like I, and, and I don’t know how to really quantify this when I’m on Twitter. Oh, I guess I do. When I’m on Twitter, I feel like there’s an algorithm gaming my engagement so that I keep scrolling all day long and it’s kind of polarizing me so that I’m wanting to see what crazy thing I’m going to pull up next.

[00:59:01] Preston Pysh: When I’m on Primal, it doesn’t feel like that at all. It feels like I’m, I’m seeing and viewing posts that are pretty wholesome and like well intended and are building. There’s a lot of developers on, on Primal that are interacting about different things that they’re building either on Bitcoin or whatever.

[00:59:21] Preston Pysh: But it’s different. And I think if you talk to anybody that’s been on the Nostr for a couple months, every single one of them are going to say the exact same thing. They’re going to say there’s something different in the algorithm of, of like what I’m being fed to view. And when I, when you look at, well, how do these other social legacy, social media companies make money?

[00:59:44] Preston Pysh: They make money on advertising. How do you serve up more ads? You have to have some type of AI algorithm that’s feeding very salacious or Something that is enticing to that person to keep scrolling, but the business model isn’t that over on Prime That’s the reason I guess I think that it’s very different I’m curious if you think It’s just because we’re early and like maybe some of that is going to that more salacious Type posts are going to come and start inundating people’s feeds Or is this something that’s inherently different that you get with decentralized social media?

[01:00:23] Miljan Braticevic: Wow. I love that question. And I’ve seen many people, people report this kind of stark difference in the vibe on Nostr versus Twitter. I haven’t been, I hadn’t been on Twitter for a while up until like a few days ago, and I kind of took some time to browse through some feeds and man, you’re right. Like it really, the feeling that you have in your gut after browsing and literally doom scrolling through through the feeds is way different than the kind of chill, kind of positive vibes that we seem to have on Nostr currently.

[01:00:57] Miljan Braticevic: I don’t know if this is a result of the network just being young and relatively small, maybe. Although, I am noticing something else, which I’d love to get your take on. I am noticing that people who have big followings on both Twitter and Nostr, seem to be more authentic on Nostr. The content that people publish on Nostr feels more authentic, more real.

[01:01:24] Miljan Braticevic: So when Jack Dorsey talks about what happened at Twitter on Nostr, like, he seems to be able to get into more details and we kind of seem to be able to kind of get closer to his soul, closer to what he’s actually all about. Same with many other people, let’s say Snowden, if you want to hear what the Snowden’s actual thoughts about like a number of things, just check out the way he riffs with the plebs on Nostr.

[01:01:54] Miljan Braticevic: He’s not, he, like the, the, the posts on Twitter are much more official sounding, whereas like the content on Nostr seems more authentic. Same goes for Lynn Alden, I’d say, and I think for yourself, like you actually are a great person to address this, I think, because you have a big, you have a big following on both Nostr and Twitter.

[01:02:20] Miljan Braticevic: So how do you approach posting on these two different platforms?

[01:02:25] Preston Pysh: This is the easiest way I can just, because you are right about this. I think that when I’m posting on Nostr, I know I’m talking to people that are part of the resistance and know they’re part of the resistance and they’re, there’s no there’s no fake people over there.

[01:02:44] Preston Pysh: Like they’re there for all the right reasons. They’re there because they want free speech and they want free and open money without asking permission from anybody. And I think over in Twitter, you know, that a majority of your audience is not that person. And so I guess I don’t think I’m doing it consciously, but I know exactly what you’re talking about and you’re exactly right.

[01:03:04] Preston Pysh: And I think if you talk to Lynn or you talk to any of these other people, Jack or Snowden or whoever, I think they might tell you something similar, but in a, in maybe a different description than you’re part of the resistance and you’re proud to be there. And kind of like, I guess embracing it and very proud to be part of the resistance over there.

[01:03:25] Miljan Braticevic: It really is special to be a part of something like this so early. And I would really encourage people who maybe haven’t taken a look in a few months or ever, maybe to take another look. It’s it’s quite special.

[01:03:39] Preston Pysh: Yes, very much so. And if you’ve already created a private key, you can just you know, download try out Miljan’s Primal app.

[01:03:48] Preston Pysh: You can just download it and take your NSEC and just plug it in there and boom, your entire history of posts are right there. Like you swapped from LinkedIn to Facebook and everything just kind of followed you. It’s pretty magical and insane to kind of see firsthand.

[01:04:03] Miljan Braticevic: It is. That’s, that’s the aha moment for a lot of people where it really clicks.

[01:04:07] Miljan Braticevic: It’s like, wait, you know, I was using this other client, but I can use my private key and everything is there. And a lot of people end up using multiple clients and, and there are already so many great options in Nostr, so, so that’s great to see.

[01:04:23] Preston Pysh: Yeah, exactly. Milian, I can’t thank you enough for coming on.

[01:04:27] Preston Pysh: This is if I would say there’s a passion project that I have beyond Bitcoin, it is Nostr. I just think that free and open speech is so dang important, and to talk to a guy who, in my opinion, is doing this at an absolute, like, apex predator kind of way, which is the only way I like to see things done, it’s you, sir, and I am proud to call you a friend, and to be able to have a front row seat to what you’re building, and it is just amazing, and I can’t encourage people enough to hey, try it out for five minutes.

[01:05:06] Preston Pysh: Like you can download this thing in like 30 seconds on your phone and like, give it a whirl and see what we’re talking about. And if you do, let me emphasize this. If you do, please post at me or Miljan and say, Hey, listen to your conversation and we will send you the. I’ll send you my default 101 sat return for the post that you say.

[01:05:27] Preston Pysh: So try it out, guys. I think you’re going to love it. Miljan, anything else that you want to highlight?

[01:05:32] Miljan Braticevic: Yeah, you guys do that and you’re getting zapped for sure. By both of us. No, I would just say thank you, Preston, for having me. And thank you for everything that you’re doing to advance this cause.

[01:05:45] Preston Pysh: Love it. Well, thank you for your time.

[01:05:49] Preston Pysh: If you guys enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow the show on whatever podcast application you use. Just search for, We Study Billionaires. The Bitcoin specific shows come out every Wednesday, and I’d love to have you as a regular listener. If you enjoyed the show or you learned something new or you found it valuable, if you can leave a review, we would really appreciate that. And it’s something that helps others find the interview in the search algorithm.

[01:06:09] Preston Pysh: So anything you can do to help out with a review, we would just greatly appreciate. And with that, thanks for listening and I’ll catch you again next week.

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