[00:03:16] Kyle Grieve: So you’re on Millennial Investing podcast back in 2022 and you covered your book in quite a bit of detail. So we’re still going to go over it, but maybe not the entire book. But, yeah, I wanted to go over a lot of high level investing takeaways that you’ve learned from your past in, investing yourself as well as your business.

[00:03:34] Kyle Grieve: So let’s kick off this, interview with a famous Warren Buffett quote that I know means a lot to you, which is quote, I’m a better businessman because I’m an investor and I’m a better investor because I’m a businessman. you spoke about how when you started your business, this quote really resonated with you, as it was hard to understand it without having some skin in the game.

[00:03:51] Kyle Grieve: So can you go over how running your own business has made you into the investor that you are today? 

[00:03:56] Chris Panagiotu: So there’s a couple of ways to skin that cat. First off, I would say I became an infinitely better investor once I started running my own business. And if I would give anyone the advice, do you start investing first or running a business?

[00:04:11] Chris Panagiotu: I would first go and start running a business first. I did it a little backwards. And you know, the reason for that, there’s a couple of things. Even though I went to school and I’ve researched all this stuff over the years, I do not consider myself like a Buffett ite or a Guy Spier ite, shout out to Guy, I miss you man, or Robert Hagstrom or all these guys that I’ve interviewed.

[00:04:33] Chris Panagiotu: I just consider myself an everyday dude that happens to have an obsessive passion for the planning side of the aisle. And so for me, when I started my practice out of my apartment, which will be the ninth anniversary this May, which is wild. You know how you go through school, and you’re in an accounting class, and they’re telling you about accounts receivable, and revenue, and expenses, all that?

[00:04:55] Chris Panagiotu: All that goes out the window when you start a business. Because, unless you have seed capital, which, spoiler alert, I didn’t. You have no idea what’s going on. And so you’re really just trying to hustle to get by. And then you realize, Oh my gosh, money is coming in. Oh, that’s what a sale is. That’s what revenue is.

[00:05:13] Chris Panagiotu: And then you build up and you go, Whoa, I’ve got this money that hasn’t hit my account yet, but it’s about to, I’m about to receive it. Oh, that’s accounts receivable. And then, you know, you found out, I find out really quickly, like what expenses are and you find out what a negative profit is very fast. And then over time you start to understand, Oh, that’s what a profit is, anything left over.

[00:05:40] Chris Panagiotu: And so had I known what I know now. It’s a little hypocritical. I’m not going to say, Oh, I shouldn’t have started investing when I was 10 and started advising when I was 18 and all that fun stuff. But if I could have gone backwards and redone it, I would have started a business or multiple businesses by 10 and 18.

[00:06:01] Chris Panagiotu: So by the time I got to where I’m at now, the compounding of knowledge of how to run a business would be so much farther ahead. And then by definition, this is where your audience obviously gets really nerdy into the weeds. You can pull an Adam Sessel and say, I’m valuing this business incorrectly because I took all the depreciation or excuse me, I took all the research and development in one year.

[00:06:24] Chris Panagiotu: I should depreciate that accordingly. Or, Oh, I should probably analyze this business like a Hershey, where it is an old business with factories and driving and. and all these tangible goods that you get to appreciate over the years. So that would be my biggest piece of advice. Run a business as long as possible.

[00:06:42] Chris Panagiotu: And by definition, you will become an infinitely better investor. 

[00:06:46] Kyle Grieve: So there is a line near the beginning of your book that really stood out to me. You were discussing a key concept on a realization that you’d made on people with generational wealth. And that quote was quote, I did not know this at the time, but these people were all about the planning process, not merely investing in discussion that the media portrays as so important.

[00:07:02] Kyle Grieve: Unquote. So what are the most important parts of the planning process that you think most people overlook? 

[00:07:09] Chris Panagiotu: Alright. Buckle up. I’m a football fan. And for those that watch football, this is going to relate. If they don’t just buckle up because it’s going to be maybe a wasted couple of minutes, but I promise there’s value there.

[00:07:21] Chris Panagiotu: So let’s say that you have the ball on offense. What is the purpose of having the ball on offense? It’s a score a touchdown. Now you can kick a field goal, but that’s not good enough. You’ve got to score a touchdown. Now every team in the NFL has their own core framework of scoring. I’m from Tacoma, Washington.

[00:07:44] Chris Panagiotu: Seattle Seahawks are 45 minutes away, so let’s go back in the day when the Seahawks were actually good. Yikes. And Marshawn Lynch was playing for them. So Marshawn Lynch was arguably one of the best running backs in the league at that time. So their core strategy was running the football. Now, you can’t do that every single time, because if you do that every single time, shocker, the professional players on the defense will figure it out, and then you’re not going to get any yards.

[00:08:11] Chris Panagiotu: So then you have to surround yourself with satellite strategies. So Russell Wilson would maybe run out of the pocket. He would dish one to Doug Baldwin. He’d throw a deep one to Tyler Lockett. basically the last one left. He’d throw one over the middle to Jimmy Graham, the tight end. So you’ve got all these satellite strategies around the core strategy for the overall purpose of scoring a touchdown.

[00:08:33] Chris Panagiotu: The way I translate that into the world of planning, because people have it all wrong, is they think planning is going to the sexy satellite strategy. The Tyler Lockett, the Doug Baldwin, The Jimmy Graham. In investing, people go, Oh my gosh, planning is investing in the next hot stock, whether it’s Tesla, NVIDIA, or even one that maybe is unknown.

[00:08:55] Chris Panagiotu: Maybe they’ve been a diehard fan of yours, Kyle, and they’ve been listening to the Polish company that you have just been oozing out of your Spanx about with excitement. And they go and load up on that, like that’s their plan. That’s not a plan. That is a satellite strategy that is so far down the rabbit hole of proper order to actually be a general of your money.

[00:09:16] Chris Panagiotu: And so for me, the reason why I got so passionate about that was after I saw all of these successful people, financially speaking, grow their fortress. of money and really not have to worry about it. It is just that they’re a general of their assets. They’re not on the front lines. They’re not a private, they’re not a sergeant, just seeing like one thing.

[00:09:38] Chris Panagiotu: They oversee the entire battle battlefield. And that’s actually what inspired me to write my book in the first place in my masterclass. Because, as you know, who is the godfather of investing? Ben Graham. I mean, that’s where most people go, because Warren Buffett learned from him, and everyone else is a Buffettite.

[00:09:56] Chris Panagiotu: The Intelligent Investor is the Bible. I could argue it’s a security analysis, but Stig and I have talked offline, and we both were bleeding out of our eyes after reading that. So the intelligent investor is it. for me, I tried to figure out what is the equivalent on the planning side of the aisle.

[00:10:13] Chris Panagiotu: And there wasn’t one. That’s what inspired me to write Capitalize Your Finances and actually create the course because now there is that framework. And then once you dive into it, And you understand strategically what you need to do, that’s where you can get creative on the investment side. A lot of people that listen to your show are stock investors, self included.

[00:10:35] Chris Panagiotu: from a stock allocation standpoint, concentrated portfolio, excuse me, might be optimal. We have some people that maybe are index people, alright, whatever. That still works within the framework. It’s just a different flavor. Some people are much more interested in the mutual fund side of things. For better or worse, it doesn’t matter because again, investments come and go, but then the strategy remains the same.

[00:10:59] Chris Panagiotu: So I guess the conclusion of that little segment is you want to be a general of your money, not a private or a sergeant. 

[00:11:05] Kyle Grieve: So you have a great term for the money that’s left over between your income and your expenses. You call it the spread. So even though I’m not a financial planner like yourself, I get a lot of friends, who chat with me about their own spread and they, and I always, you know, bring up the, topic of what’s it invested in.

[00:11:21] Kyle Grieve: Are you just keeping it in cash or? or, you know, an ETF or a mutual fund. And unfortunately, a large percentage of these people just leave their money in cash, which is super unfortunate because with inflation right now, we all know that, every time you have cash or a lot of it over a long period of time, you’re basically just losing purchasing power.

[00:11:39] Kyle Grieve: But a lot of savers, they seem intimidated by investing because they just don’t understand it very well and everything that comes with it and making sure to do it properly and not lose money. And, you know, there’s a lot of different intricacies that come into investing that, you know, you and I probably take for granted or take for granted, sorry, because we understand it and we’ve studied it for a long time.

[00:11:58] Kyle Grieve: So what do you think is the best strategy that you’ve come across to help simplify capitalizing finances for people who just, you know, find it really daunting and kind of are like a deer in headlights? 

[00:12:07] Chris Panagiotu: That’s a great question. And technically I’m going to correct some verbiage there. So, there’s what we call gap money.

[00:12:14] Chris Panagiotu: For those of you that are into analyzing companies, you know, what profit is revenue minus expenses. If it’s positive, it’s profit. And if it’s not, we’ve got a problem. if someone, because most people are not into investing like you and me, even listeners. And so for me, I tried to water it down and make it really simplistic.

[00:12:35] Chris Panagiotu: So what you make minus what you spend, we actually call that gap money. Capitalizing the spread is understanding the role of interest rates. So if you take a loan at two to buy something at eight, you just earned a 6 percent spread. But as far as like the gap money and getting people to just really move the needle from a beginner standpoint, it’s funny, going back to the analogy of being a general of your money, when it comes to knowing how to invest your money, that is the very tail end of the line.

[00:13:04] Chris Panagiotu: Now it might not be to you and me and a lot of the listeners, because you are on average more articulately aware of how to invest. So we nerd out about that stuff, but most people don’t. One of the easiest things that I tell people is if you’re not putting any money into retirement, first off, you’ll never retire.

[00:13:24] Chris Panagiotu: Like it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know if you don’t save, it’s not going to happen. if you’re putting in at least up to that match, because it’s all about earning the best return that you can, guaranteed relative to the unit of time, given the risk that you’re taking, there will be a quiz at the end of this for every terminology that I throw out there, but little side note, when it comes to understanding the free money, that match in your 401k, easiest thing in the world.

[00:13:51] Chris Panagiotu: I would like to think I’m a great investor. You publicize how well you’ve done. So we’re not all as good as you, but I can guarantee you, you cannot guarantee a hundred percent return on your money, unless you want to go to jail. If that’s the case, dollar for dollar up to four percent in your 401k, fifty cents on the dollar up to ten percent, whatever that number is, you need to move mountains to get up to that percentage.

[00:14:13] Chris Panagiotu: Now once you get to that, it gets to be a little gray, because let’s say that you’ve got credit card debt up the wazoo, you’ve made some poor choices. We don’t judge you, maybe a little, but I digress. The interest rate’s 27%, like something egregious. Forget the taxes, forget all the tax strategy on the retirement plan side.

[00:14:35] Chris Panagiotu: You need to pay that sucker off with anything that you have left over from a gap side of things. And then you start snowballing until you get to interest rates, I would say 6 percent or below. Rest in peace to, his investment holiness, Charlie Munger, his whole thing was my entire life, all I tried to do was earn net of tax of 6%.

[00:14:56] Chris Panagiotu: And I just happened to overdo it, which is such a white collar flex, loved it. But for me, I took that and literally put it into my framework, because do I think we can earn above and beyond six? I do. I actually think we can earn above and beyond eight. I’m never going to show that in a plan unless I want the SEC to come knocking on my door.

[00:15:16] Chris Panagiotu: You don’t have to worry about that. For me, it’s all about earning those easy wins. And once you have debts that are below that 6%, maybe 8 percent if you’re feeling really confident, but like below 6 percent for sure, by definition, you are losing money by continuing that snowball effect that Dave Ramsey always promotes.

[00:15:34] Chris Panagiotu: And instead you can be prudent and then you start reallocating that money to your retirement plan. And most of the time, those people in the situation, that specific situation, they’re not going to be in a super high tax bracket. So you’re contributing after tax, and you’re letting that money grow tax free.

[00:15:53] Chris Panagiotu: I don’t know about you, there are a couple things I can’t stand in this world. I cannot stand administrative tasks, that’s why I have my amazing teammate, I am not a cat fan, I’m deathly allergic, and I’ve had brutal experiences in the past, and then I can’t stand paying taxes, and anyone that says that they do is lying, and so for me, the best return that you can guarantee other than in your cell is not an investment, it’s the taxes you avoid, and then as your tax bracket starts to grow, you start shifting from Roth to pre tax, And until you max out your retirement plan, I tell people all the time, keep it simple.

[00:16:31] Chris Panagiotu: Don’t go anywhere else. And I know that kills your listeners. Because they are confident that they can do better than a mutual fund, or an index fund, or whatever the case may be, and that may be true, but the most successful people that I’ve interviewed, and I’ve, consulted for their plans, the one piece of advice that they always say, is they wish they kept things more simple as long as humanly possible, because by definition, as your money grows, and you become more financially successful, by definition, life is going to get a whole hell of a lot more complex.

[00:17:06] Kyle Grieve: So let’s shift gears a little bit. I know that you were really interested in natural bodybuilding. I had a passion for that, along with powerlifting as well, for a long, time. I think lifting weights is one of the best kind of meditative exercises that really puts you in the moment and, just gets you focused.

[00:17:25] Kyle Grieve: And, I love it. And I think it transfers to other areas in life. So I’m interested in knowing for you, how do you think bodybuilding has impacted your abilities, whether that’s in, you know, finance, investing, and, just life in general. 

[00:17:37] Chris Panagiotu: So I’ll tell you growing up, I grew up in a financially successful household, and of course that’s a huge blessing.

[00:17:46] Chris Panagiotu: I do not take that for granted at all, but being entrepreneurial, competitive, and someone that takes extreme ownership in everything that he does, the one thing that I could never shake growing up, and still to this day in my career, is there’s always an excuse. There’s always the, if you weren’t taught this, or if you weren’t given this platform, or if you weren’t able, because my family was fortunate enough to pay for college, if you didn’t have all, you wouldn’t be here.

[00:18:16] Chris Panagiotu: And that always pissed me off. Still does. And for me, growing up, I didn’t have health. So for me, I was diagnosed with Crohn’s at four years old. And I remember the doctor basically telling my parents, Chris wasn’t going to be able to join in the other Reindeer games, if you will. And at four, I didn’t have the vocabulary I do now.

[00:18:37] Chris Panagiotu: But I knew that wasn’t right. And that was the first time in my life, I had that gut instinct of, I’m going to prove this guy wrong. Now, for me, even growing up, It got to a point where I’ve had my own family members. Like I have no relation with my father anymore. I proved that guy wrong every day, but I didn’t have a platform to prove people wrong and have absolute ownership over things.

[00:19:01] Chris Panagiotu: So by the time I got to high school, And my health compounded in the wrong way. Like I couldn’t sit through a class without going to the bathroom. I was made fun of ruthlessly for it. I was professionally overweight. And so it was not a good look. And so I just said, screw it. I’m either going to die trying or I will get healthy.

[00:19:22] Chris Panagiotu: And I remember I came home, ran as hard as I could on the treadmill, which, you know, looking back probably wasn’t, breaking any records. And I was like, I was sick as a dog. I was throwing up my childhood memories. Like it was just not good. I remember I looked myself in the mirror. you can’t be doing this at 16.

[00:19:38] Chris Panagiotu: there’s no way it’s going to get better. So the next day, got back on that treadmill, didn’t throw up as much. It’s like I was cleaning out my liabilities on my balance sheet of my health. And then I got to a point where I finally was healthy. So after six months lost some weight, I was running, I was addicted.

[00:19:54] Chris Panagiotu: And then my family introduced me to the iron and I was lifting and you and I know this, like when you start lifting, you don’t have a clue what you’re doing. Okay. I was doing every exercise every day. I was in the gym for three hours, whatever the case is. And then I got into powerlifting. And I was like, Oh, that’s kind of unique.

[00:20:12] Chris Panagiotu: And for me, I tell people, cause I don’t know what your favorite lift is. And we’ll probably talk about this when you come on my show teaser, but my favorite lift has always been the deadlift. And the reason why it’s the only lift. Where you can’t get any help. There’s no spotting because for me, like in college, when I did lifted 505, that’s my heaviest lift.

[00:20:35] Chris Panagiotu: I remember I got to the top of that lift and it was silence. And it was a moment where people are looking at me going, yeah, You can’t make an excuse for that. There’s no excuse for it. How did my fitness relate to finance in my business? When I started my business, after I left the big firms, I said, Oh, I’ll clone that mentality and I’ll apply it to my business.

[00:20:58] Chris Panagiotu: So either die trying or I will be successful. And then it was the same thing with my podcast and then it’s the same thing with my book and the courses and you know, we’re going to start speaking in 2025 and all of that. So fitness gave me the mindset foundation and I basically applied that and cloned it like Mohnish Pabrai always says.

[00:21:18] Chris Panagiotu: into every aspect of my life. So if it wasn’t for fitness, I would have nothing. 

[00:21:22] Kyle Grieve: So Chris, I know that you’re a former video game nerd like myself. And as you already mentioned with the football reference, and we’ve already spoke about this is that, both of our favorite game was Madden, which for anyone listening, who doesn’t know what that is, it’s a football game.

[00:21:35] Kyle Grieve: That’s been around for decades now. So even on the surface, it’s a sports game, but in my opinion, it’s really a strategy game just delivered in a sports format. So I’m interested in understanding how your affinity for this game and any other game that you played has helped you get to where you are today.

[00:21:53] Chris Panagiotu: Okay, this does relate. All right. So I was actually talking to my clients about this. So I got a story for it. And you have not heard this story. No one has heard this story. It is an exclusive that has nothing to do directly about what you just asked. But it’s a good one. My listeners know this. I’m a huge Oregon Duck fan.

[00:22:09] Chris Panagiotu: I went to University of Oregon. Go Ducks for the pond. I’m walking to my class. And I’m on the phone with my mom and I’m just like dreading it. So I walked by the gym and at the time EA sports was touring the top 16 schools in the country and going to these schools to have a bracket tournament of 256 kids in the winter, won two tickets to the Rose Bowl.

[00:22:35] Chris Panagiotu: So I remember talking to my mom and I wasn’t a huge college football video game fan, but I love the game of football and I love video games. loved. I have a child now, so I’m taking a step back there. And so I remember telling my mom, hey, I gotta go. I’m about to win two tickets to the Rose Bowl. She’s okay, honey, whatever.

[00:22:53] Chris Panagiotu: So I hang up, play the first kid. barely win. Second kid, the rule was if you’re down by 21 at any time, you skunk it, you stop the game and you just keep rolling. So I’m down 17 to zero at half. I’m like, Oh man, like I gotta, do something. God had his hand on me. I channeled Nick Saban. I catch fire. So I go 21, 17, beat this kid.

[00:23:17] Chris Panagiotu: And then I skunk three kids in a row. So I go through campus. And it was wild. I’m playing on this theater screen in front of 400 kids. The guy I’m playing against prepped all summer for this. I didn’t even know this was happening. So I had no posse. It was the David and Goliath of our time. And my roommate halfway through the game, who literally had no idea what was going on in the world, he’s what are you doing?

[00:23:43] Chris Panagiotu: I’m like, what does it look like? Like I’m trying to win two tickets to the Rose Bowl. And, for those people that understand games, and I promise I’ll get to the finance side of things, but one of my clients is you have to share this story somehow. It gets down to fourth and one, and I have to punt.

[00:24:00] Chris Panagiotu: And the kid that I’m playing against has two timeouts left. And for those of you that play these video games, it is super easy to kick a field goal, stop the clock, and the guy basically had it. So you never fake punt it. Like it never works, but I did and I get it. And the kid was so mad that he took the controller and he threw it on the ground and it just exploded.

[00:24:22] Chris Panagiotu: So I FaceTime my mom. I’m like, Hey, I’m going to the Rose Bowl and 400 kids like swore me. And of course I hang up. My mom’s my child’s probably dead. But that year was the year that I went. So the year I went was when Oregon and Wisconsin played. So it was Russell Wilson’s last year. There was no defense, it was like 49 42, Ducks win, it was absolutely bonkers, and I ended up playing like the top kids in the country, I ended up getting 4th, it’s a bummer, but my whole thing was, when it came to playing that game, it was, first off, you gotta understand the framework of the game, you gotta understand your core strategy based on the team that you choose, Oregon is obviously running a shotgun formation, and back then it was triple option.

[00:25:08] Chris Panagiotu: So I probably passed it like three times. I was running all over these kids. It was great. And then they were complaining and, it was, marvelous, but I knew my framework, I understood what not to do. And then also you kind of stay in your lane. So for me, I knew that every kid wanted to throw it over the middle.

[00:25:30] Chris Panagiotu: Cause the game at the time, you couldn’t really see the sidelines unless you really dropped back and most kids are impatient. So I just threw up cover too. And I was a linebacker over the middle and I just stared. And I would intercept it like it was nothing, because they had no option, and I’d have four linemen on the front line, and it was strategically, basically filling all of the holes, so I couldn’t lose.

[00:25:56] Chris Panagiotu: I wasn’t necessarily playing to win, but I was playing not to lose, and so that’s how I learned from a video game standpoint, like with Madden or NCAA, which, God rest that soul, I hope they bring that back. I learned, I basically took that mental model and I applied it to the planning process. You always have to be a general with whatever you’re trying to do.

[00:26:17] Chris Panagiotu: You have to see the big picture. And then you have to sometimes just accept that you’re not going to hit the big home run. I don’t know if you know this, but golf was my sport growing up, which probably led to my professional obesity. You know, for me, golfing, I would drive kids bonkers when I went to state because they’d take out the driver on a par four with 400 yards.

[00:26:40] Chris Panagiotu: Like they’re not driving the green. And so they would just spray it everywhere. I would always take the hole, divide it by two, hit the same shot twice. And if I hit it close, I birdie and then worst case scenario, I par. And there was a player that was actually interviewed last year and he basically just consistently hit like par or two under and he was never mad and his whole thing was you make millions of dollars if you’re 20th consistently on the PGA, so who cares?

[00:27:07] Chris Panagiotu: And I’m like, what a great way to live, you know, because for me, I’m not trying to necessarily always be the best investor because you can’t, like it’s impossible. But as long as you prevent. all the ways of how not to lose. Charlie Munger said, by definition, you can’t help but win. 

[00:27:27] Kyle Grieve: So you’ve interviewed some excellent investors on your show, such as Guy Spier and Gautam Bade and Robert Hagstrom, but we’ll get to another question on him later after.

[00:27:36] Kyle Grieve: but I’m interested in knowing what are some of the biggest lessons that you took away from these, those two guests that have helped you, improve. 

[00:27:43] Chris Panagiotu: So I’ll get to the investing ones in a second, but the investing pieces that I took away I’m not saying they weren’t valuable, but they were not as valuable as the biggest piece of advice that I took away from, I would say Guy, Adam Sessel, shout out Adam, look forward to seeing you at Berkshire, and Robert, cause Gautam’s still young.

[00:28:06] Chris Panagiotu: The number one thing that they wish they started earlier. And they regret was they’ve started gifting their knowledge back to people later in life. So they feel like they have to catch up. And that hit me really, hard. I happen to be a man of faith. And so for me, I know it’s unique that I started investing at 10.

[00:28:29] Chris Panagiotu: I know having that runway, I mean, even though I’m 32, it’ll be what my 14th year of really being in the business. So because of that unique runway that I have, I can get ahead of that and it’s really great because I now use the podcasts and the book and the course, I’m not doing it for the money side of things, I’m doing it to basically compound my goodwill back to society because unlike a lot of these guys, where by the time they start to see people basically be results of their laborious knowledge giving, in 30 years, you know, knock on wood, I’ve still got a long runway.

[00:29:05] Chris Panagiotu: And I would love to see people say, man, I picked up Capitalize Your Finances 30 years ago. I did this, I capitalized my debt. I capitalized my long term strategy. Now I’ve capitalized my retirement. I don’t have to worry about a dollar. Thank you, Chris. that’s what I’m trying to get. But as far as the investing side of things, it’s a little complex, but you have to figure out your, so in my book, I say you have to figure out your salsa.

[00:29:28] Chris Panagiotu: And that’s from Dr. Craig Israelson out of BYU. Everyone has to figure out their own flavor of investing. So someone like Monish Pabrai, super concentrated hedge fund. The guy has got cojones of a lion and he just revs the investment return engine. And if he’s wrong, he’s just so be it. And I’m like, dude, so be it with hundreds of millions.

[00:29:49] Chris Panagiotu: I don’t know if I’ve got that. Guy does not have that same temperament. And he said that, you know, his allocation is much more of the five to 10 percent in the portfolio. Gautam’s, and he wrote this in his joys of compounding. I’m trying to give everyone’s book away. So sorry guys. But one of his things was, you know, I like to have three and a half to 5 percent of each position in my portfolio.

[00:30:12] Chris Panagiotu: And if it gets to something like 10, I will carve off the top. No questions asked. And so for me, figuring out my own salsa, if you will, over time, it’s been really great because you don’t have to go and copy these people verbatim. And in fact, one of my all time favorite investors, is probably one that most people have never heard of and we can talk about that if you want, but for me, I’m much more of a believer of, okay, you pick the things that you resonate the best with Gautam, as an example, Adam Sessel, Guy Spier, Hagstrom, you, and then I start re engineering and I consistently re engineer my framework and then what’s cool is people can now take that from me and go, hey, the cap and capitalize did XYZ.

[00:31:03] Chris Panagiotu: I don’t agree with everything, but I’m going to take this sliver and I’m going to put it into my framework. And the cool thing is that is what capitalizing your finances is all about. 

[00:31:12] Kyle Grieve: So yeah, tell me, I want to mention knowing who this investor is that probably I’ve never heard of. 

[00:31:18] Chris Panagiotu: Okay. And you may have heard of him because again, you’re a steward of the business and you’re constantly reading back.

[00:31:24] Chris Panagiotu: Have you heard of Robert Healbrook? I have not. Okay. I was reading and I actually think I pulled this up right before I came on the show. So the book is called, shocker, Value Investing: From Graham to Buffett and Beyond. I know a very original title for, this type of discussion. So Robert Hulbrun, that chapter was the investor of investors, right?

[00:31:49] Chris Panagiotu: So a lot of people try to be like the next Warren Buffett or the next Monish or the next Charlie or whatever the case may be. And that’s really never been my thing. Like I’ve always much rather been an investor of investors, but I didn’t really have anyone to clone in that regard. And so it was always frustrating for me for years up until probably two years ago when I read that book.

[00:32:12] Chris Panagiotu: So Robert Healbrun, and for those of you that know everything about him, I’m still doing some research, so you know, cut me some slack. Robert Healbrun, early in his career, because he grew up during the Ben Graham era, he knew what he didn’t know. So he knew that in order to get ahead, you needed to do all the things.

[00:32:31] Chris Panagiotu: Concentrated portfolio, analyze businesses accordingly. He didn’t know how to do that What he understood was, I know the people that do, so he had originally invested with Graham, Walter Slaus, and over the years, and then later on, you know, Warren Buffett, which I guess if you’re going to pick three, that’s an all star lineup, but over the years, anytime he saw a change, he would re engineer, reverse engineer why they did what they did.

[00:33:00] Chris Panagiotu: And so then later on in his life, that’s when he started his own limited partnership. He was ragingly successful, but his thing was by the time I get there, even if I take all the risk in starting my own limited partnership and it doesn’t pan out, I’m actually taking no risk because the rest of my net worth is already compounded.

[00:33:18] Chris Panagiotu: So I can truly take that risk and it’s almost like no harm, no, was it heads I win tails I don’t lose. And so for me, I thought that was brilliant. And a lot of investors will say, Hey, go back, look at what Warren did, reverse engineer and clone it. And I don’t think everyone has that skill. And in fact, I don’t think most people have that skill.

[00:33:41] Chris Panagiotu: So for me, I’ve been a huge proponent of being an investor of investors. I’m a proponent of the endowment model. I talk about that on my show a lot. It is in my book, on my course. And for me, it’s not a matter of either or whether it’s, you’ve got stock people over here and then you’ve got real estate and private equity and private credit people over here and they just battle.

[00:34:06] Chris Panagiotu: That’s no, that’s not true. If you go and study Yale’s endowment, which by the way, doubled the market for 40 years when Swenson was alive. He understood that everything works in harmony. And for me, I’ve told myself, unless my wife and I have invested in an alternative investment or a stock, I will not recommend that to a client from a long term standpoint, no questions asked.

[00:34:32] Chris Panagiotu: Obviously being 32, I don’t have the shorter term investments like annuities or bonds or structured CDs, things of that nature, because I don’t need them. When I get to that point, I may, who knows? But for me, my whole thing is aligning myself as much as humanly possible with clients as well as my brand.

[00:34:53] Chris Panagiotu: And you get to sleep better at night. So now that I’ve got a lot of these groups out there that I get to allocate to, I know how to read. I know how to understand like what’s going on or what isn’t going on in these businesses or pieces of real estate or private equity companies or private credit. I know how to analyze these different types of investments because it takes a different framework for each one, but I also know the people behind those investments, because one thing I have taken away over my years of experience is what separates someone like Warren from everyone else?

[00:35:32] Chris Panagiotu: Yeah, he can read the numbers, but he truly gets to know the people that he’s investing with. he talks to Moynihan from Bank of America. He talks to Tim Cook. I don’t know how regularly, but he does. Now, granted, he’s got the net worth where he can probably call, and you’re not going to ignore Warren.

[00:35:50] Chris Panagiotu: But take that framework and become human. It’s okay to pay people to grow your net worth because that basically pays for your time so you can learn on your own versus you’re trying to hit these crazy home runs and claim that you’re the greatest thing since Ben Graham because chances are you’re not.

[00:36:12] Chris Panagiotu: And at the end of the day, no one cares. No one cares how you made millions of dollars. The fact is, you made a million and then you can tell your story and just be honest about it and be you. 

[00:36:23] Kyle Grieve: So I know you got a chance to talk with Robert Hagsrom, who I also got to interview and he was one of my favorite guests.

[00:36:28] Kyle Grieve: So you mentioned in one of your interviews that off air, he was telling you about this thinking room. So I’m interested in learning more about, this conversation you had. So I’ll let you describe what the thinking room is. And, yeah, I’d love to know how you implemented that concept. 

[00:36:44] Chris Panagiotu: First off, Robert Hagstrom, love you man.

[00:36:47] Chris Panagiotu: I will give you an uncomfortably long hug when we get out to Berkshire. It’s long overdue. Now, And you know this, I know this, but for those of you that don’t go on podcasts, you’re not really into it, you just listen, generally how these things go when you’re zooming, or video, whatever you choose, you have a couple minutes of schmooze at the beginning, and then you actually go through the show, and of course you do mic check at the beginning, make sure your camera doesn’t look like you’re filming with a potato, and then you have about 5 10 minutes after, and then you ride off into the sunset.

[00:37:18] Chris Panagiotu: And Robert gave me a significant amount of time after that call. Now I’m not going to go through everything because obviously you know, masters don’t reveal all of their secrets, but one of the things that he asked me, I don’t know if he probably doesn’t even remember this, but I remember it vividly.

[00:37:34] Chris Panagiotu: He goes, do you have a place where you go to think? That’s kind of a weird question, but it’s a unique one. And I’m like, In my old office, like I have my conference room, at home, my home office or living room, I guess, because no, If you’re going to oversee, because we oversee about 140 million and my goal is to oversee a billion by the time I’m 40.

[00:37:55] Chris Panagiotu: So we either need to bring on new clients or we need to hit the next GameStop every year forever. Okay. We’re working on it, people. And for Robert, he said, if you’re going to oversee that amount of money, you need to separate yourself from the package. And the one thing I have. I don’t know if he knows this about Guy, Warren, Charlie, all of the best investors in the world, the super investors.

[00:38:19] Chris Panagiotu: The one of the main things they have in common is they have a place where it’s dedicated for them to profoundly think and nothing else. There’s no music, there’s no sound, there’s no electronics, there’s nothing. You need a place, you need to build it out where you just go and profoundly think. Now I’m a very literal guy, which was not great at the beginning of my career, but now I’ve, gotten better.

[00:38:43] Chris Panagiotu: But when it comes to stuff like that, I take it extremely literal. So when we moved into our, new headquarters, Back in July of, last year, 2023, I saw the ability to build out just that. So we have our conference room. My assistant has her own office. I’ve got my office. We’ve got the studio. And then we have a thinking room.

[00:39:07] Chris Panagiotu: And that room I have built out custom to me with the proper colors, with the proper lighting, with the proper air conditioning. Where when I go in there, whether it’s a prospective new client, an existing client, prospectuses, 10 Ks, 10 Qs, my second book that’s coming out later this year, I go in there with big things and before I hit the computer screen or I put my pen to paper, I just think.

[00:39:34] Chris Panagiotu: And sometimes I can be in there for hours. Sometimes I put my pen to paper in there and I’ll lose track of time. And my teammate knows unless someone is dying, okay, Do not interrupt the thinking, because profound thought is where you move mountains, and so for me, it’s been huge. It’s been huge in every aspect of my life.

[00:39:56] Chris Panagiotu: I can think about, obviously, professionalism. Yes, I have funny thoughts, shocker. And then I can apply it to my podcast. I’m like, oh, I can get someone to smile this way. Or I think of how grateful I am to be a father. and a husband. Or I think about how blessed I am to have the best teammate in the world.

[00:40:16] Chris Panagiotu: You know, she’s been with me for seven years and she’s told me I’m never going anywhere. this is the last place I’m going to work before I retire. How cool is that? And so for those of you that have the ability to do something like that, because it is an investment, Make sure that you build something out that is custom to you where you can truly absorb your thought, but if you aren’t able to afford something like that, I would say the next best thing is, you know, if you own a home, dedicate a spot in your home where that’s all you do.

[00:40:48] Chris Panagiotu: Make it custom. If you rent an apartment, maybe align your computer or something where when you’re in this position, that’s all you do. That’s your profound thought position. Because I will tell you the moment you create that environment, every aspect of your life is going to compound in the right direction.

[00:41:09] Kyle Grieve: So I remember you speaking on a previous podcast about how you’ve adopted a positive thinking mindset, which is quite obvious from speaking with you. And you, you mentioned that in sports, for instance, and business, it’s easy to trash talk your competition, but that’s not the optimal way to live your life.

[00:41:26] Kyle Grieve: you know, as we know, and as you, you know, you mentioned Gautam Bade and the, the effects of compounding where you can affect positivity and you can affect negativity. And you’ve chosen, obviously, to focus primarily and probably exclusively on positivity. So I’m interested in learning a little bit more about that process and how it’s impacted you.

[00:41:43] Chris Panagiotu: There’s a lot there. So first off, I will say, when I played sports, In golf, again, was my main sport growing up. in golf, you don’t trash talk, okay? that’s just not a thing. Unless you’re me. I remember growing up, and I was really blessed to have this. My coach was Ken Still, God rest his soul. He was actually on the PGA for a short stint.

[00:42:04] Chris Panagiotu: He was best friends with Jack Nicholas, Arnold Palmer, and he was around the greats. And he was extremely unique because he was loud, like beyond belief. So if I hit a putt and I sank it from 40 feet, I remember this vividly. I was five years old and we’re doing a practice round at the course.

[00:42:23] Chris Panagiotu: I had a 40 footer or something. And as a kid, you know, I’m like, yeah, you know, I’m just, I’m hyped. And I remember my, father comes over and basically says Hey, you gotta knock that off. Like you can’t do that, because golf right? Proper gentleman’s sport, Ken saw that. And after you know, father walked away or whatever, and was helping out my brother or something, Ken comes over and he grabs me by the ears.

[00:42:43] Chris Panagiotu: And he goes, Chris, don’t you ever Lose that passion. Now I’m keeping my voice down ’cause he screamed it at me and I’m sitting there going okay, yes sir. And so now like growing up, like that’s actually how I kind of separated myself from golf. So for me, like I just wear my passion on my sleeve.

[00:43:01] Chris Panagiotu: I mean, look at my shirt. You know, for me, if I sank a 30 foot putt, I’m going to make sure the competition knows it. I’m going to stare them in the eye and say, I’m going all day long. And I would talk trash. I actually, it probably was a little excessive. Like I would look up, okay, is any family member going through something traumatic?

[00:43:20] Chris Panagiotu: And by hole four, I’m, throwing that out there. Cause if they miss a putt or whatever you got, you have to win. Cause I was not the best golfer. But I could remove the junk that they were telling me. Obviously that’s not an optimal way to live your life because you don’t want people feeling bad when you’re competing at a high level.

[00:43:37] Chris Panagiotu: It’s temporary. Like I can tell you, Alec Ingold, when he was on my, show, the fullback Miami Dolphins, there is no way that on the field. Okay. Maybe when he’s mic’d up, he, mutes it a little bit, but when he’s not mic’d up, Alec, I know you’re saying some naughty things and that’s okay because the second he gets off the field, he knows all he’s doing is trying to win.

[00:44:02] Chris Panagiotu: And he’s one of the most genuine men I’ve ever met in my life. I love the guy with all my heart. So when it comes to just like the positive mindset, it’s a choice. My fitness coach, this is a, prime example. At 21, I committed to the drug free bodybuilding lifestyle. And since then, the reason why I did that, I’ve been in complete remission of my crowns.

[00:44:22] Chris Panagiotu: And that’s frankly my second largest accomplishment other than marrying my wife slash being a father to little Abigail. And I remember I went to my coach saying, I want to be a pro drug free bodybuilder by the time I’m 30. Didn’t happen, but I was obsessed because I get very obsessive with things and I get obsessive with winning.

[00:44:40] Chris Panagiotu: I don’t like to lose. And I remember I asked her, what is the best piece of advice you can give me? And she looked me dead pan. She goes, I’m just going to give you the best piece of advice. I wish I knew when I was your age. Life is a choice. She got in her car, she drove away. Now, in that moment, I was kind of ticked off because I’m like, that didn’t give me squat.

[00:45:00] Chris Panagiotu: Like you got to give me something here. As my life has gone forward. That quote has become increasingly more and more valuable, important, and topical. So example, let’s say a client leaves. They don’t often, but sometimes they do. I could choose to pout and mope about it, and of course I’m bummed because I rip my heart out for people.

[00:45:24] Chris Panagiotu: Or, I could say, and this is where my faith comes in, I always ask myself, God, what are you protecting me from? And sometimes I know the answer, like I’ll find out later. Sometimes I never do. I just give it up. And then I move on. And it’s really just fortifying your mind with all of these motes, if you will.

[00:45:44] Chris Panagiotu: Negativity just can’t cross it. And then if it does, The metaphorical negativity, they’re so exhausted swimming across the moat, where you can just put a fork in it and they’re done and you just keep moving on. So that’s kind of how I’ve built my positive mentality. Life is too short to suck. 

[00:46:01] Kyle Grieve: So you’ve said that if you ever to get a tattoo, you’d get confirmation bias and anchoring bias tattooed across your back as reminders to yourself to avoid it as much as possible.

[00:46:11] Kyle Grieve: So how have you designed your investing strategy, to try and reduce the impacts of these two biases, both for yourself and on your clients thinking processes? 

[00:46:21] Chris Panagiotu: You never stop learning. I’ll give you an example of this. So up until 2017, I was a stock guy. I mean, yeah, that’s how I got into the business. I was fascinated with stocks.

[00:46:33] Chris Panagiotu: And then he worked for the two largest firms in the world, other than stocks and bonds, not really giving you anything else. And for me, 2017 was a turning point because I said, okay, I know that’s a valuable asset to have, but that isn’t the only way people have built their net worth. Look at real estate.

[00:46:51] Chris Panagiotu: of course, that’s, a huge part of people’s net worth. So I remember Googling, what is the best way or what is the number one way billionaires have made their net worth or grown their net worth? And I think it was like 55 percent of self made billionaires have their money in real estate. And I thought, okay, cool, but I can’t just throw a bunch of real estate investment trusts at clients and call it good.

[00:47:15] Chris Panagiotu: And that’s when I started to come across the endowment model. Now, up until 2022, I was definitely more interested in the alternative side of things. One, advisors and planners don’t really understand it. So it was a way for me to provide a Swiss Army Knife for people that they otherwise didn’t have. And frankly, if you read my book, you’ll know that there is an immense amount of value in utilizing that strategy potentially for a client situation.

[00:47:44] Chris Panagiotu: But, you know, you go back to, because everyone wanted to get in real estate up until 2022. Everyone and their mother. Adam Sessel’s book. I remember reading it and I don’t, have you read Where the Money Is? Okay, it’s a great read. And that chart early on in the book where it shows like cash, real estate growth, and then the best businesses growth over time.

[00:48:07] Chris Panagiotu: And I’m like, Oh my gosh, I’ve had this thing all wrong. I wasn’t totally off. no one got hurt in the process, but that’s where I could retweak it and get better. And that’s where people ask, where are you throwing your money now? I’m like, that’s a tough question because I don’t know your situation.

[00:48:25] Chris Panagiotu: And if I tell you where I’m putting my money, I may allocate it if it’s appropriate, but I don’t know what you got cooking, but I’ll tell you all things being equal. The number one way to grow your net worth is through really great businesses. But up until from 2017 to 2022, I believed it, but I wasn’t able to actually see it until I saw that chart.

[00:48:48] Chris Panagiotu: So it’s constantly learning and tweaking. And then you’ve really just got to, you’ve got to stay nimble. And so what I mean by that is, again, in my framework, investments come and go, but the strategy remains the same. A couple of years ago, like when I wrote the book, I remember looking up CDs and, you know, you were earning squat on CDs.

[00:49:10] Chris Panagiotu: now you fast forward, you’re not earning squat, you could be earning four to five percent. So instead of that being money for today, you could actually quantify that as an intermediate type of money type of return, but it’s a more conservative thing. You have to stay nimble. So once you understand your framework and how it works, it’s never going to stay constant.

[00:49:33] Chris Panagiotu: I will tell you the biggest difficulty I have in the business, it’s not actually doing the numbers side of things. Because I, we know what we’re doing. It’s managing the emotional side because people think, oh my gosh, the one side fits all and you have to be dynamic because like dollars are not all the same.

[00:49:52] Chris Panagiotu: There’s different dollars for different units of time. 

[00:49:56] Kyle Grieve: So you’re a recent father like myself and another thing I really enjoyed in your book was a little section that you talked about with how to teach your kids about money and especially with taxation because when you get your allowance when you’re a kid, you know.

[00:50:12] Kyle Grieve: You know, I have no concepts of taxes. So you had this suggestion of, taking a portion out of their, allowance to help teach them about taxes. And I really, thought that was smart because, you know, may as well get them started young into understanding that someone’s going to put their hand in your pocket and take a little bit of your income, every single paycheck that you have.

[00:50:30] Kyle Grieve: So you discussed the strength and, the power of this and you called it building fortuitous calluses, which I really loved the wording there, by the way. Anyways, I thought more about that concept and, I wanted to know more about, you know, specific things that you want to teach your daughter once she gets old enough to start understanding these things to help her, better understand money as she grows so that I can, feed off ya.

[00:50:52] Chris Panagiotu: So this has actually expanded ever since the book came out too, because I’ve had a number of people say, Hey, have you thought of this, So you are getting exclusive content on how to capitalize your children, which sounds aggressive, but I promise it’s, a, positive thing.

[00:51:07] Chris Panagiotu: The lemonade stand, prime example. I think a lot of parents, they don’t drop the ball, but they don’t keep the ball rolling. Most lemonade stands, you go outside your home, you’re basically in front of your garage, or on the corner, like we live on a corner a lot. You got the stand out, you sell maybe a couple, and then you’re done.

[00:51:28] Chris Panagiotu: I think there’s a lot more that you can do. First off, if you’re going to do a lemonade stand, take your child to the store. Show them what the cost is of everything to do this. You don’t have to get in the weeds, you’re just showing them the things. I know that’s a very elementary like sentence, but that’s all they’re going to get and it’s going to compound in their mind.

[00:51:52] Chris Panagiotu: And so you go outside the home, of course you do that and you say, Hey, how many did you sell today? Oh, And you look and they’re probably not going to sell a whole heck of a lot, but they sold a few and they go, okay, daddy’s got a plan for you. I think next weekend. Let’s try a different location.

[00:52:11] Chris Panagiotu: Maybe that might be a little bit better. So then you go to Whole Foods. You just ball out. Because again, Whole Foods, Whole Paycheck, everyone’s got the money. And I’m just picturing my daughter just making it rain. Like just loving life, okay? I go, okay. So what did you learn? We need to sell more outside of Whole Foods, Daddy.

[00:52:28] Chris Panagiotu: Oh, okay. So now they’re understanding location. And then you go to a local mart, okay? Like for us, it’s Albertsons, Safeway, Kroger, whatever. I would say Walmart, maybe not. And so you get outside that and you’re maybe not selling as much, but that’s a different clientele. So you get to learn how to have a conversation with different types of people, not better or worse, just different.

[00:52:52] Chris Panagiotu: And so you do that after a couple of weeks. And then you, might want to stick a fork in it cause they’re going to be done and you go, okay, you just learned the value of having a good location for your business. Of course you understood taxes. You’re going to raise a capitalist like immediately. You understand how to speak to different types of people, which makes you incredibly nimble in the world of business, not just investing.

[00:53:18] Chris Panagiotu: And then three, you now understand how to fund a business. You understand if you made money on it. You understand? If you didn’t, I mean, if you really wanted to nerd out, if your kid’s like super in the weeds with numbers, whip out the HP 12 C calc, say, Hey, we spent this much money. You just earned three acts like this was your rate of return.

[00:53:38] Chris Panagiotu: That’s what daddy does for people. But there’s just so much that you can do with the lemonade stand. And I just think it’s, yeah. There’s just so much left on the table, I guess, pun intended. 

[00:53:50] Kyle Grieve: Another great person who I know helped shape your investing philosophy was Philip Fisher, who wrote Common Stocks on Common Profits.

[00:53:57] Kyle Grieve: So I came up with pretty similar takeaways from you that, you know, growth is a very, strong component of investing and generating returns. So I’m interested in knowing what other lessons did you get from Philip Fisher that helped make you a better investor and business person? 

[00:54:12] Chris Panagiotu: The biggest thing I actually took away from Phil, what making it sound like I know him personally, but Philip Fisher was the first investor that I read up on that really leaned into the quality of a business before you even went through the number side of things.

[00:54:31] Chris Panagiotu: I think actually Adam Sessel would be like the modern day Phil Fisher because when you look at his method, the, was it the BMP method, which kind of sounds explicit if you don’t know what you’re talking about, but it’s very much qualitative and then the price is like the bare bones end of the game. Phil Fisher’s wasn’t.

[00:54:50] Chris Panagiotu: I mean, it’s 15 steps and then you got like the scuttlebutt method, which, you know, if you haven’t read it, you have no idea what it means. But it’s one of those things where, for me, it wasn’t necessarily the book as much as it was the actions that he took throughout his career, because if it wasn’t for Phil Fisher, there’s a really good chance Warren and Charlie wouldn’t have bought See’s Candy, and Warren said last year, he’s made his fortune over about a dozen companies or investments, and I know See’s is one of them, He doesn’t say it, but we all know it.

[00:55:21] Chris Panagiotu: And so for me going, okay, here’s a guy. Yes, all of this framework was great, but he was really the one that you could argue that moved Warren Buffett’s needle the most when he needed it the most. Cause I think it was in the seventies and frankly, in the seventies sucked when it came to investing.

[00:55:41] Chris Panagiotu: Like it was awful. And imagine if Phil didn’t have his framework locked and loaded, and he didn’t tell Warren and Charlie to go and buy seats. I mean, Warren would have been fine. But he wouldn’t have been as good. That, those are the biggest things I took away from Phil. It’s just, okay, his framework worked, but what were the biggest action steps that he took?

[00:56:05] Chris Panagiotu: And he very rarely spoke about how he valued a business. It was all about the quality. Now, sometimes that really frustrates me because, you know, for me, what I liked about Robert Heilbrunn is he got around it. He’s okay, we’re not going to tell me how to value it. So I’m just going to invest with you and you’re going to figure it out.

[00:56:25] Chris Panagiotu: And I’m just going to reverse engineer it that way. But for Phil, I don’t know. It really just came down to the quality of things, but then also being very rigid. Like he was a, Hey, if I haven’t made money in this, stock for three years, all things being equal, if there’s no recession kicking me in the groin, then I’m out.

[00:56:45] Chris Panagiotu: And I’m going, I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I get where he’s coming from. So I actually took a lot of things of what I wouldn’t necessarily do. 

[00:56:56] Kyle Grieve: I love that. I think, with a lot of these greats, you know, no one’s perfect. And also a lot of them, like you, you said earlier, you know, you kind of pick and choose what, what, which attributes you want to take and which attributes maybe that they’ve expressed that you want to avoid just because it doesn’t vibe with your personality.

[00:57:14] Kyle Grieve: So I think those are, great lessons. So anyways, Chris, thank you so much for joining me today. And before we say goodbye, where can the audience connect with you, learn more about your book, Capitalize Your Finances and your services? 

[00:57:27] Chris Panagiotu: So if you are interested in taking the Capitalize Your Finances masterclass, you’re interested in Capitalize Your Finances book, Head on over to Capitalize Podcast and we have a link to both.

[00:57:37] Chris Panagiotu: If you’re interested in the podcast, you can head it over to Spotify, Apple Pod or YouTube. And then if you’re wanting to connect with me personally on social media, you can head on over to Instagram, @capincapitalize. LinkedIn Cap and Capitalize, or Chris Panagiotu. And then Twitter, @CAPinCAPitalize, but we really use Instagram and LinkedIn the most.

[00:57:57] Chris Panagiotu: I can tell you if you DM us and you have a very vanilla response, that is my marketing team. But if it is a very colorful response with unique vocabulary, that is the @capincapitalize responding personally. 

[00:58:12] Kyle Grieve: Okay, folks, that’s it for today’s episode. I hope you enjoyed the show and I’ll see you back here very soon.

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