Evan Carmichael (04:27):

And at the time, 2009, YouTube wasn’t very, it wasn’t the thing. Being a YouTuber wasn’t a thing. Being an influencer wasn’t a thing. I mean, I guess I’m dating myself a bit. But it was the only video platform at the time and I’m a visual learner. I like being able to, even if this is an audio podcast, being able to see you, because it makes it easier for me. Otherwise, I’d have to have my eyes closed and just really focus because audio’s the worst way for me to learn. So YouTube was the only video platform. So I started making video content because I wanted video content myself. So I wasn’t Nostradamus. I didn’t know, I predicted this was going to happen. It was really just, I want to serve, I want to help entrepreneurs like me, and I want to do it in a visual way. And so I went to YouTube.

Clay Finck (05:07):

I guess as far as the Millennial Investing show, I actually did not start the podcast myself. Robert Leonard started it back in 2019 and I actually joined the TIP team in the fall of 2021. It’s been a really cool opportunity to help make an impact on others. And I enjoy helping people better understand finance and investing. And I love learning about the subject myself as well. Preston Pysh and Stig Brodersen who started the company back in 2014 have been huge mentors of mine for many years through the podcast. So it’s also been a really cool opportunity to have the chance to work with them as well. I just really enjoy helping people out and answering a bunch of their questions along the way and doing what I can to help.

Evan Carmichael (05:51):

I think at the end of the day, it’s what we all want. We all want to feel like we’re making a difference. We all want to feel like today we’re going to wake up and do something that matters to somebody, to another human. And whether it’s our own business or whether we’re at a job somewhere else, the feeling I’m going to do something today that’s going to matter to at least one person is the juice of life. That’s what it’s all about. And I think when most people wake up and drop their job that they hate and they feel like they don’t matter. And that’s where most people will hate their lives. And so this is the path. I mean, I’m doing it through my content. You’re doing it through hosting a podcast. Other people can do it in their own ways. Maybe it’s just being a great father or great mother or great… You’re helping people. We all want to feel like we matter to somebody else.

Clay Finck (06:31):

Did you ever imagine the channel becoming this big or did you just focus on that impact that you wanted to make on others and then the subscribers kind of came on their own? Could you talk about that part of your journey?

Evan Carmichael (06:44):

Yeah. In the early days, I think similar to investing, it’s compounding, right? In the early days, how am I making… I’m not making any money. I put money in, how did I only earn a hundred bucks off of that? But if you let it keep growing and keep compounding, all of a sudden, oh my gosh, I have a million dollars in my accounts, or whatever it is. In the early days, I mean, again, Clay, YouTube was not a thing. So I had no even concept. I wasn’t smart enough to predict it and nobody else was doing it. So there’s no model to say: Okay, I’m going to do it like he did or she did. It was really just, how can I get some stories out there and try to help some entrepreneurs? Along the way, it became more real and seeing more people do it. And especially in education, YouTube also as it started to take off was not an education platform. There were no long form interviews and podcasts and education on YouTube. That wasn’t a thing.

Evan Carmichael (07:32):

I made a six minute video. One of my first big videos was six minutes long. And people in the industry ridiculed me for making a video that was too long and that I didn’t understand how the internet worked and nobody would ever watch it. Six minutes long, and I was like, it’s crazy this stuff. So it’s more YouTube has evolved into, yes, it sells entertainment. I mean, it’s for everybody now, but a lot of people go to YouTube to learn. It’s like the number one place people will go to learn. They’re not going to their library to learn. They’re going to YouTube and typing, how do I X? And then here’s a video. And so for all of the people ask me, is it too late for YouTube? Not even close. Inside education thought leadership, I’m not an expert on slime videos or any of that kind of stuff. But inside podcast is so much more because as an education platform, it’s still pretty new and there’s so much demand and still pretty thin supply.

Clay Finck (08:24):

Millennial Investing is a part of The Investor’s Podcast Network, which was started by Preston Pysh and Stig Brodersen back in 2014. They were on a similar path as you. They just wanted to talk about this stuff and shoot it out to others. They weren’t trying to make a business out of it or anything. And first show was called, We Study Billionaires, which seems to fall pretty well in line with what you’re doing with your channel, with how you’re studying the best of the best. And I think with many of these successful people in their companies, they’re very mission driven. So I’m curious, what is your mission or what’s the mission of your YouTube channel?

Evan Carmichael (09:01):

I want to solve the world’s biggest problem, which I think is people don’t believe in themselves enough. And I think everybody has what I call Michael Jordan level genius at something. You’re the best in the world at something. You’re the Michael Jordan of something. And the problem is one, you don’t believe that you are. And maybe not you, Clay, but the general you. And two, you don’t explore enough to chase down the thing that you could be great at. Whatever you think the world’s biggest problem is at cancer, perfect. I think the woman who solves cancer should have already solved it, but she’s a manager at an accounting firm hates her life, instead of having gone to medical school and figured out how to go solve cancer.

Evan Carmichael (09:35):

That’s what I wake up every day trying to do. Solve the world’s biggest problem, people don’t believe in themselves enough. I have a passion for entrepreneurs. I love entrepreneurs. I think entrepreneurs are going to solve the world’s biggest problem. So I don’t default to waiting for the government to change some rule for me to be able to do something. I’m an entrepreneur. I’m going to find a way and we’re going to make the world a better place. That’s the mission forever.

Clay Finck (09:56):

Now you’ve seen this massive growth in your number of subscribers. I’m curious, how do you measure the impact that you’re having in that problem you’re trying to solve? What are some of the things you’re trying to look at determine yes, I am working towards my mission of making more and more people believe in themselves?

Evan Carmichael (10:14):

Yeah. So there’s no metric that I look at. It’s like: Oh, I’ve hit it because I’m not going to hit it. The whole point is to have a goal so big that you never hit it. A reminder of Ted Turner whose billionaire and his dad, his goal was to be a millionaire and he hit it. He became a millionaire and then he killed himself because he realized that life was basically the same afterwards. And Ted then said, “I’m going to set a goal so big that I never hit it.” And that for whatever reason, stuck with me, not that I ever thought of killing myself, but just set a goal so big that you never reach it and then you have something to go and strive for every single day. I think we should have something that’s bigger than ourselves and what we can create. And yet you wake up every day trying to do it. It’s like you’re trying to empty the ocean. You can’t, but you wake up every day trying to empty the ocean. You know the story with the boy and the starfish and all the starfish on the seashore?

Clay Finck (11:04):

I actually haven’t.

Evan Carmichael (11:06):

Oh, it’s like there’s a storm comes through when there’s starfish everywhere on the seashore. And there’s this boy who picks it up and just putting the starfish back in the ocean. And the guy walks by and he says: What are you doing? You never going to save all these starfish. What are you doing? It’s like: You’re right, but I saved that one and I saved that one and I saved that one, right? So you’re never going to solve it for everybody, but you could wake up every day trying to solve it for everybody. I don’t measure it by how many. Once I hit three million subscribers, that’s it. Now I’m good. I did it. There’s no number because having 10 million subscribers is not going to be the difference. There are a hundred million subscribers or whatever. Why I say it and frame it like that to myself is just the idea that I want to be doing things at a bigger scale.

Evan Carmichael (11:47):

So I want to say yes to opportunities where it has the ability to potentially reach people saying yes to this. I don’t talk a lot about investing, but this is a chance to reach a new audience that maybe doesn’t know me and can connect to the message a little bit. So you say yes to that and say no to one-on-one coaching because it’s great to help one person, but it doesn’t have the impact and reach that I want to have. So it’s less about metrics of how I’m measuring. It’s not about investing. It’s easy to see how much money you have in your bank account. And if it keeps growing, at seven and a half percent, I’m going to make X, Y, Z. Great. I don’t think with a purpose, you can quantify it like that. It should be something that’s just way bigger than yourself.

Clay Finck (12:24):

Yeah. Being a very numbers-based person, it can be hard to have this sort of abstract target that you can’t really measure. So what are some of the common themes you’ve found from all of the successful individuals you’ve studied? Is there anything that has really stuck out to you that comes to mind?

Evan Carmichael (12:44):

Well, first, the belief in themselves to go do something when everybody said that they can’t. Whoever you look up to, your favorite heroes of all time, and not just in entrepreneurship, but athletics or music or arts, whatever. People told them, they couldn’t do it. And there was no reason why they should have been able to do it, but they just did it. They believed in themselves to do it. On paper, it looked like there’s no way they were going to win. And yet they went off and won, which I always found really inspiring. Two, they did something about it. I think the biggest problem for most people is they just never start. If you listen to this and you want to start investing, start. I get it. It’s scary. You can make mistakes, but you’ve got people like Clay and the guests coming on to help you and give you guidance and teach you.

Evan Carmichael (13:23):

But you’ll never get ahead by sitting on the couch and never doing anything, right? So many people sit on great ideas. Even if all you do is buy an ETF and sit in there for five years is better than sitting here doing zero. And then five years later looking back and saying: Oh man, I wish I did that five years ago. We’re stuck living in regret instead of actually doing something, making a change. I think of financial education. A lot of… I wish my parents taught me this. Or why didn’t we learn this in school? How does school not teach us how to invest? And great, I mean, so you didn’t learn it in school. Learn now, right? That’s not going to change anything for you. So the only thing that will change is taking some kind of action. And that’s what a lot of these successful people, all of them, that’s what they’ve done.

Evan Carmichael (14:02):

They have every reason not to do it. And yet they go off and they just start taking action. And then the last one is they kept going. They keep following through. Fail, okay, great go. So if you buy a stock and it tanks, that means you’re done? You’re never going to invest it ever again. The ETF has a bad month, what? You sell and then you’re out. I mean, you got to keep going. You got to keep learning. This is a forever game that we’re playing here and successful people do that. There’s not that much that’s different. They’re not more talented. They’re not more skilled. Definitely not smarter. They believed in themselves when they shouldn’t. When they “shouldn’t” they started and they just kept going. And here they are.

Clay Finck (14:36):

Yeah. That’s one thing I’ve kind of realized with many entrepreneurs. They don’t seem to be the smartest, the A students. A lot of them just have this almost irrational self-belief and that’s what’s allowed them to really achieve what they have. They don’t let failure stop them from pursuing what they really want in life.

Evan Carmichael (14:52):

And I think that’s why the mission becomes important. Why are you doing what you’re doing? It’s got to be something that in the face of constant failure, you’re still going to get up and keep going because you love the thing so much. I think there’s also a generational gap where you used to have to kind of be a little crazy to be an entrepreneur. So historically the entrepreneurs with a C, D, F students because they couldn’t get a job somewhere else and they had no other option basically except go start your own business. Now, a lot of smart people coming out with straight A is like: I want to start a business.

Evan Carmichael (15:21):

I don’t want to go work for a company. It’s cool to be an entrepreneur, which is amazing. I love it because I think entrepreneurs will solve all the big problems. So I think if you look historically, a lot of the leaders might have been really bad students. But I think now there’s a lot of really super smart, bright people too, who are winning. But it doesn’t mean that they’re any smarter or more special than you. They started and they kept going.

Clay Finck (15:41):

When I think about your YouTube channel and trying to put myself in the shoes of someone that might want to start a channel themselves, I think that many people might become intimidated by the high quality that someone like you might be producing since many people have a job they need to be at and might not have the time and money to have the fancy setup that some YouTube creators might have and might not have the money to hire others to do the editing and so on and so forth. I’m curious, what your general thoughts are on YouTube? Do you think the window is still open for anyone to go out and start a channel successfully today and it’s something that they do on top of their full-time job?

Evan Carmichael (16:25):

I think there’s a ton of white space. I think there’s tons of opportunity right now. I focus again mostly on thought leadership education. So caveat that if you want to start a new slime channel or something, I don’t know. Maybe it’s impossible. I think there’s always room for quality. I think if you look at any industry, most businesses are way more developed than YouTube. If you want to get into home insurance, or you’re going to get into selling cars, or what’s your alternative that you’re going to get into that is less competitive. So I think there’s tons of white space, but especially in education on YouTube, you go look it up. You’re talking about investing, right? This is a themed investing show. Perfect. Go to YouTube, type in the topic that you care deeply about or you’re an expert at. See what shows up. First off, there won’t be that many people. It’s not that many channels talking about investing. And two, then watch the videos. And how many of them are really elite level people sharing content? Not that much, right? It’s still very white space open. Lots of room.

Evan Carmichael (17:20):

And so if you really know what you’re talking about, if you don’t know what you’re talking about, okay, then it becomes a journey, right? If somebody’s watching and wants to share their journey of becoming… For you, if you’re not an entrepreneur, but you work at a company and you’re on your journey to becoming an entrepreneur, or you’re on your journey in investing and you’re on your journey to become the world’s greatest podcast host, right? You’re not going to say you are yet. You could document the journey. Show me you and how you prep for interviews and who you’re bringing on and how nervous you are and how you find the questions and how it went after. All of the stuff that takes people inside the world. Who’s doing that? Nobody. I don’t know, I haven’t seen anything, right? You’d be the only one doing it. There’s pretty white space. But if you were an expert on investing, the hosts or the founders of the channel, they probably know a lot more than what a lot of people are posting on. So there’s a giant white space.

Evan Carmichael (18:04):

Inside of thought leadership and education, people overthink the production because you think you have to have this fancy camera or microphone and studio setup and all that. It’s not about production quality. It’s about quality of thought. Can you teach me something? Am I going to learn something new from you that I can’t learn somewhere else, that I’m not getting from my textbooks, I’m not getting from my teachers, I’m not getting from any other place? In almost every industry, I work with thought leaders across all sorts of different industries, there’s always room for quality at the top, always. So I think it’s still super brand new. I think if you got in when I got in, it was just way too early. Why most people quit? There’s been channels that I’ve helped grow and they started before me. It’s like you were on before me, but they only have 10,000 subscribers because they quit. You had to be stupid to be making content because nobody was watching it. So yeah, I think it’s a huge opportunity right now.

Clay Finck (18:54):

I actually agree. And I think that the podcasting space is very similar and that there is quality content out there, but anyone can still go out and start a successful channel if they really wanted to and they’re really passionate about the subject and willing to dive deeper and really just be themselves. It doesn’t have to be the giant mega corps that have all these resources that end up rising to the top and eating up all the digital real estate that exists on the internet.

Evan Carmichael (19:23):

Which giant mega corp has a successful podcast? They have to go hire… They have to buy out Joe Rogan to have them come in because corporate content sucks. Where is Bank of America with their podcast? It’s garbage. I mean, if they even have one, right? They need to buy out Clay and say: Hey, we’re launching our own division here. Let’s go.

Clay Finck (19:41):

I’d like to ask you back to kind of your content. What have been some of the favorite individuals you’ve studied or maybe individuals you’ve continually revisited over the years?

Evan Carmichael (19:53):

I’ve learned from everybody that I profiled. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have it on. I think it’s a lot easier to just put on entertainment content, or if I did the 10 stupidest things Kanye West who’s on the wall behind me, right? If I did like the 10 stupidest things Kanye West has done, that would blow up, that would actually do better than my 10 rules for success from Kanye West because people would love to see that. I just don’t want to put that out. That’s not helpful for me. So a lot of it is a reflection of what do I want to learn most right now and how much content is out there. So I love learning from Kanye. He was the first top 10 that we did. There’s not a lot of great new content out that I can kind of leverage or use. I love learning from Steve Jobs, but there is no new content coming out from Steve Jobs.

Evan Carmichael (20:32):

I also love learning from Tony Robbins, who was a guest on my show on the weekend, and Gary Vee and Tom Bilyeu. A lot of these people now I only studied years ago, and now I can text them, which is pretty cool. You start to build up your name, I guess. I mean, it’s been 13 years or whatever now in the industry. It’s been a great privilege to study these people and then have be able to call. At least some of them, your friends. Well, I’m not texting Tony Robbins, but I can text Tom Bilyeu and Brendon Burchard and some of those guys.

Clay Finck (21:00):

Now, when I look at your website, I see all of these things going on. You’ve wrote a number of books. You post YouTube videos every single day. I’m curious, as someone that’s been on this journey for many years and you’ve done many things and it feels like you have a lot of stuff going on, what does your typical day look like?

Evan Carmichael (21:19):

I struggled a lot with this, Clay. And my solution, which thankfully we came to was I do different things on different days. Not only am I doing a lot of things, which is great and fulfilling. I think as entrepreneurs, we like having a lot on our plate. We don’t want to just do one thing. And I have 37 people on my team. So that also helps me get a lot done, that it’s not just me doing everything, otherwise it wouldn’t happen. Different things on different days. I struggle with switching between different tasks. I mean, everybody struggles with it, but I think I extra struggle with it. So for me to go from doing a live stream to writing my book, to figuring out investment strategies, to whatever, just too much switching costs. So I do different days, different things. So we’re recording this on a Thursday. Thursday is my public facing day.

Evan Carmichael (22:04):

Just before this, I was going live on my YouTube channel. That’s how you said in the pre-show. Hey, I was just watching you live on your YouTube channel. Great. I was there. Now I’m here. I’m going to do something else later. I had a bunch of stuff before and it’s the same energy. So I’m not thinking about my YouTube channel. I’m not thinking about making new content. I’m not thinking about my next book. I’m not thinking about my investing strategy. I’m not thinking about NFTs or Bitcoin or anything. All I’m thinking about is my extrovert hat on and I’m spreading the message today. And it’s all day just doing lives and going on people’s shows. Monday’s my mentoring day, where all I’m doing was focused on my team, mentor my team. We got 37 people. They matter. They need to grow.

Evan Carmichael (22:38):

The growth of my company is much more about how well they do versus how well I do at this point. So I’m mentoring my company. Tuesday is YouTube day. I’m filming videos all day long, just content. Wednesday’s project day, whatever project I want to work on. Thursday, public facing day. Friday is my CEO day. Saturday is my fun day. Sunday is family and [inaudible 00:22:58] day. And then repeat. So it allows me to get a lot more productive and also happier and not lose so much time in between different projects. So I think being able to chunk your time out like that based off energy makes a big difference.

Clay Finck (23:13):

I really like that. Do you ever feel burnt out, or do you have a cutoff on when you’ll stop working, or do you adjust with maybe how you’re feeling? I’m curious how you approach that to as an entrepreneur.

Evan Carmichael (23:25):

Yeah. People ask me about burnout because we’ve done 12,000 videos. Not all of them are public. That’s over 13 years. I don’t see work life balance. It’s just life. Is this work? This is not work for me. Maybe it’s work for you. I don’t know, but it’s not work for me. This is fun. I see Clay in here. This is going to be fun. This conversation is giving me more energy than it’s taking. I’m an introvert. I’m shy by nature. So when I start my day on a Thursday doing interviews and stuff, my first one is probably the worst. And then the energy I brought here is from my YouTube livestream. And then I’m going to take Clay energy and pour it into the next person. And I have more energy than I had at the beginning because of this, because of you.

Evan Carmichael (24:03):

So this is just all life. This isn’t work. And so I think you burnout from doing too much of the stuff that you don’t like. If I had to do accounting all day long, I would burnout in three days. I’d be out. Tap, I’m out. I’d be burnt out. But doing this, I love. And all those different things on different days, all of those things fill me up for those days. And stepping into my schedule should feel exhausting and crazy, but this is my life. I love it. And me stepping into Clay’s life should be terrible for me. It’s like: I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to research guests and talk investing all day long. And they’re like: What are you talking about? That’s the best stuff ever. Carmichael, let’s go. So I think you burnout from doing too much of the stuff that you don’t enjoy. And I’ve always just pivoted my business to do things that I enjoy.

Clay Finck (24:45):

I got it. I really like that as well. Another question I had related to your content, I think many people can get stuck consuming it and not actually doing anything or taking action. And you kind of alluded to this earlier, how successful people, they recognize a problem and they take action on it and they stay persistent and stay consistent with it. What advice do you have for people that kind of feel stuck and are really just consuming information and not really doing anything about it?

Evan Carmichael (25:13):

One, recognize yourself for even having that awareness. That’s awesome. That’s a great place to know where you’re stuck. Most people feel stuck and have no idea why. So to know that you’re just watching content and you’re not doing anything about it is already great awareness. So instead of beating yourself up for it, I’m like pat myself in the back: Hey, congratulations. Figuring out what your blind spot is, is the hardest part of the game. So you’ve already done it. Two, whenever you catch yourself thinking like that, now what’s the action we can go off and take? So you know you’re thinking like that. You’re still likely going to think about it and not ever catch it. But when you do catch it, what are you going to do? You got to go do something.

Evan Carmichael (25:48):

So the fact that you’ve caught it right now means what’s an idea that you’ve got, what’s something that you want to do, whether it’s entrepreneurship or YouTube or investing or whatever, what is the thing? And then using that as leverage to go off and actually create the thing that’s in your mind. And then three, I would say the more that you stay in it, you will naturally get pulled towards it. It’s just a question of timing. If somebody is listening to Clay. How many episodes have you done, Clay?

Clay Finck (26:12):

I’ve recorded 20 to 30 interviews. I do the Millennial Investing show that’s released twice a week. And then Robert does the real estate 101 podcast that’s released once a week.

Evan Carmichael (26:23):

Cool. So if you’re listening to Clay twice a week and you’re just listening, you’re passive and you’re like folding your laundry or mowing the lawn or something, get something going on in the background. But if you’re listening every week, twice a week, it may not be the pace that you want, but Clay will pull you towards doing something. You will get to the point where you get so frustrated that you haven’t done anything. Or for whatever reason, even though you’ve heard Clay say the same thing 48 times before, the 49th, the way he said it just hit you and now you’re ready to go off and do it. So don’t judge yourself so harshly. I think we’re way too hard on ourselves. And we should be our own worst critic, but we’re not enough of our own cheerleader as well.

Evan Carmichael (27:01):

So you can’t be harder because you don’t cheer yourself on enough. So even if you’ve caught that you’re stuck, amazing. If you keep listening to Clay or keep listening to me or keep watching my videos or whatever the thing is that you’re stuck consuming, it will eventually pull you to where you need to go. It’s just, are you happy with that timeline? And if not, then you can make it faster. On the YouTube live we did just before, people was like, how are you so knowledgeable? Well, I’ve consumed a whole bunch of content. I’m hanging out watch my own stuff and we use it. And every time Clay brings on a guest, he learns something that maybe makes him a little smarter to ask a different question to the next guest, or maybe he applies something to his life or his investing.

Evan Carmichael (27:35):

Same thing for you guys, you’re listening, you’re watching. You pick up a strategy or an idea from one of the guests and you go do something with it. So don’t feel like a failure and feel like you suck, that you’re only listening and you’re only watching, never do anything with it. You’re on the path and you’re ahead of most people. It may not be fast enough for you, and you can ramp up that timeline if you really want to, it’s doable, but you’re still on the path and walk in a journey. And Clay will take you to the promise line if you keep listening.

Clay Finck (28:01):

I love the super positive attitude you bring in, literally every single one of your videos. It’s really a part of your brand that I really like.

Evan Carmichael (28:09):

I mean, it’s not a brand, right? It’s like, it’s me. And this is one of the things I struggled the most with when I… Where did believe come from? Believe is my brand. Well, it came from me not liking the tagline on my website. And I thought: Oh, my tagline sucks. I need to fix my tagline. This is terrible. And the more I looked at it, the more I realized: Oh, it’s not even the tagline that my business is all about. It’s me that I’m bringing to my business. So then it becomes, well, who am I that I’m then bringing to my company? And that’s where believe came from. And I hope I’m congruent. If ever I show up on a podcast and it’s like: Hey, man, you’re pretty negative. Like: Oh man, really? I didn’t mean to be. I wonder what I was drinking or who I was talking to before or something. Because my intention at least, I may not always live up to it, but the intention is to spread more belief in every opportunity that I can.

Clay Finck (28:58):

I took a look at your book, Built to Serve as well, which you released, I believe last year. And you’re a big believer in finding your purpose and living that out. What would you tell someone that knows they aren’t where they want to be in life, but they really aren’t sure what their purpose is, and somebody out on the internet like Evan Carmichael’s telling them to start living out their purpose?

Evan Carmichael (29:23):

Well, you’re never where you want to be in life. I mean, that’s good. I’m not where I want to be. Clay’s not where he wants to be. We always want to have something that we’re shooting towards. There’s a great phrase. I forget who said it, but there’s a saying that’s beyond the mountain there’s more mountains. I really like it. Yeah. Because we think about climbing to get to the top of the mountain, but the goal is not to get to the top of the mountain. The goal is to climb forever because there’s always something that we’re learning. No matter how much you know about investing, there’s always something new that you can learn about investing. And that’s the juice of life, right? If you hit a goal and you don’t know where you’re going next, you’re now going into depression. We want to always feel like we’re growing and learning and getting better and improving and taking the next step up.

Evan Carmichael (30:01):

If you feel like you’re not where you want to be, congratulations, you’re human. That’s good. Everybody wants that. If you felt totally comfortable and never growing, you’d end up completely hating your life. Humans need growth. Hopefully you don’t think I’m yelling at you to go find your purpose. If you feel like you’re capable of more and you’re struggling to figure out what your purpose is, then understand again, that your purpose comes from your pain. Whatever you think back to the lowest moment in your life, when you felt the most worthless as a human being, whatever that was, doesn’t mean you were suicidal or something. But when did you feel the lowest? And you’ve got out of it. You’ve done things, right? Right now, your life is an impossibility. If you look at your life, Clay, what you’re doing right now, you’re on this. You’re interviewing guests on this podcast. Think about Clay five years ago. It’s like, this is impossible what you’re doing now. It’s like, there’s no way you’re going to be here. There’s no way this is going to be happening for you. And yet you’ve done it.

Evan Carmichael (30:49):

You’re an impossibility to younger you. And so there’s lots of younger you’s out there who also feel like it’s impossible. And your story, your message, whatever you did to get out of the hole you are in is teachable. And they’ll listen to you in a way that they won’t listen to Evan Carmichael or Ray Dalio or Oprah Winfrey or whoever, right? They’ll listen to you because you are exactly like them. And that’s the ultimate. We are built to serve. We love it. It would be great to hold the door for somebody or buy the cup of coffee for somebody behind you in line. Awesome. But when you can see somebody who basically is younger you and you see their eyes light up that, oh my gosh, this life is actually possible. I could do that instead of staying stuck here. That’s the best thing of all time. And we all have that. And no matter how low you are, you were worse before. And so being able to help those people, I think is the way through.

Clay Finck (31:38):

That’s one of my favorite things about being a host is that it puts me out there and allows me the opportunity to teach others. People reach out to me with specific questions about investing or ask me to bring on a guest that they would like to learn more from. It’s just a really unique position to be in. And I really enjoy helping people out as much as I can.

Evan Carmichael (32:00):

First off, everybody loves helping people, right? It’s baked into us. So I think humans are good. I think we’re naturally good. So why is there so much negativity and somebody’s coming to your podcast leaving a nasty comment and/or on a YouTube video if they’re good? Well, I think hurt people hurt people. I think they’re just really hurt. I think people in a lot of pain. And if you’re honest with yourself, when you are in a lot of pain and struggling with something, were you always your best self? Were you always so kind and nice in helping people with their finances and [inaudible 00:32:28]? It’s like, no. Not that you are necessarily that rude. But looking back, there’s lots of moments, me too, that I could say: Oh, I didn’t. That was not best Evan right there because I was in pain.

Evan Carmichael (32:36):

So most people they’re just in a ton of pain, but everybody wants to serve, everybody wants to do good. But then diving deeper into that, why you love it so much isn’t just because it’s a big problem for everybody. That’s a nice macro thing. Is it a problem for America? Of course, but so is lots of other stuff. Why are you not solving global warming or pollution or malaria or there’s lots of stuff that you could be solving? There’s something that happened to you that you realized how important finances were in your life that when you realize that you’re like: Oh my gosh, why didn’t I learn this before? How come we didn’t learn this in school? This is… I can do this. I need to go tell the world about this stuff, right? So yes, it’s a big problem, but it’s a problem that’s meaningful and personal to you.

Evan Carmichael (33:16):

And we all have something similar. I love investing. Now I bought my first stock at 12 or 13. I thought I wanted to be an investment banker and stock broker and all this stuff. Realized it wasn’t the path for me. So know enough about the world. But that’s not my passion like financial education. My passion is helping entrepreneurs believe in themselves more. And so when you figure out that thing that’s personal to you, there’s so many great causes. But Clay does not care about saving a chimpanzee as much as he does about teaching financial education. This is great. There’s nothing wrong with that, right? We all have our own thing that we should care about.

Clay Finck (33:46):

That’s funny, you mentioned that you enjoyed learning about investing earlier on in life. I went back and watched one of your Warren Buffett videos in preparation for this interview. And YouTube showed me that I had already watched one of your Warren Buffett videos that was published back in 2015, 7 years ago. It’s just crazy how the world kind of loops back on itself sometimes, how back in 2015, I got inspiration from one of your videos about Warren Buffett, learned how he became this giant investment mogul and now we’re speaking today. Just a crazy world.

Evan Carmichael (34:19):

That’s cool, man. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It’s funny how those things go. And if you just, a lot of it is just staying in the game long enough and great things start to happen for most of us just like compounding interest. We quit too soon on things and when you can compound it, it’s going to have just a much bigger impact. So that’s awesome. I mean, for me, I cared a lot about investing. I wanted to make money. I didn’t know how to do it. I asked my parents, they said, go be a banker because bankers make money, right? So it’s not really the greatest advice, I guess.

Evan Carmichael (34:47):

How do I make a lot of… What stocks do I buy? I had this little stock competition when I was in maybe high school. I don’t remember. And asked my parents: Okay, what stocks do I buy? Like: Oh, buy the banks. The big four Canadian banks, Royal Bank and TD Bank. And like: Okay, cool. They didn’t really outperform or win, but that was my entry into that world. I really loved it. I thought I wanted to be a financial advisor, investment broker, or something. Anyway, my path took a different turn, but pretty familiar with the world.

Clay Finck (35:12):

I’m super curious as an entrepreneur with a rapidly growing business, you’re hiring people, you’re figuring out ways to expand the business. How do you think about investing? Do you have your own portfolio? Are you focused on your own businesses? Do you invest in other businesses? What does that look like for you?

Evan Carmichael (35:30):

Yeah. That’d be interesting, especially for this audience, because I’m probably coming from a different perspective. I tell the people around me. So accountants, lawyers, life insurance people, et cetera, that my heart is in my business and my head is in my wallet. So I will take more risks in my business. I care deeply about what I do. It’s something I need to wake up and feel like today’s going to matter my business. But for my financial side, I don’t care, whatever makes sense. I’m not emotional. I need to go buy this stock because it’s going to take off. I’ve also gravitated towards a much in maybe a year. Of course, that could be helpful in this. I was doing some numbers and I bought companies that I like, believed in the owners.

Evan Carmichael (36:09):

So I bought in Facebook. I bought Amazon. I still hold those. And then I bought ETFs, XIC. I’m Canadian so that’s our big XIC BlackRock. I was doing some numbers and I was comparing it to real estate where people go, you leverage your real estate, right? To then buy home and you make money off the whole upside, will pay in really low interest rates. Why not do that in the stock market? I would never leverage against Facebook. I’m just too risk-adverse for that. I mean, people do it all the time. You take margin. Great. That just feels way too risky for me. But to leverage the market, to leverage the ETF, leverage the entire Canadian stock market or the entire Dow Jones or whatever, I would bet on that if you have a long enough horizon, right?

Evan Carmichael (36:46):

If I don’t need the money in the next three years. So I’m actually shifting my strategy to sell out of every individual stock because I think I’ll make more money leveraging the index than I will whatever upside Facebook or Amazon gives me with zero risk. Over five year period, what’s the risk, right? 10 year period, 15, there’s zero risk. It’s going to go up. And unless it’s just completely different compared to historical numbers. And a lot of the financial advisors are like: Well, that’s way too risky to go into debt. We do it all the time for real estate.

Clay Finck (37:16):

I think the big thing to really think about what’s that is to ensure that you’re not going to get a margin call. If you’re getting close to a margin call, I would be sure that you’re earning enough money or you have enough money on the side that you can put into your portfolio to ensure that you aren’t going to be forced to sell your stocks during a major correction. Because during a correction, when stocks are down, that’s the worst time to sell stocks. Historically, any correction has been a major buying opportunity. That would be the biggest concern I can think of. Just ensure that a margin call is not going to be happening to you. And I think working with a reputable broker that communicates how they work, the margin system is also important.

Evan Carmichael (37:57):

Sure, but you can account for that. Don’t go up against the max. I don’t know what the limits are in the US, but we have 70%. It’s probably higher for you guys in how much you can go. So if I do 40%, for me to ever get a margin call, you could design it so that the market would have to drop 20% a year for three years in a row to ever get a margin call, which has never happened, right? You could design it for that. I’m a risk-adverse guy. My head is in my wallet. That feels like the safest thing of all time and just smart. If interest rates are low enough, right? I mean, if the interest payments are higher, then that’s a different story if interest rates go up. But in our current environment. Anyway, so these are the conversations that I’m having. I’m about to do a major life insurance policy. I want to take out the money to then invest into ETFs and then leverage against ETFs.

Clay Finck (38:41):

So there aren’t any trends that you’re looking at, you aren’t investing in Google to get behind the YouTube trend or anything else?

Evan Carmichael (38:50):

No, not enough. I mean, historically it’s bet on the person. You may not love Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, but I would bet on them. And I would bet on them more than I would bet on a company. People ask me about Tesla and Elon Musk. He’s done super well. I would not bet on Elon Musk. As an entrepreneur, I would. In my money, I wouldn’t. I think it’s too like… And he’s done super well. So he’s proved me wrong. But too much of a loose cannon for me to put my penny significant worth into that. But I think it’s actually much less risky with a much higher upside, apart if you’re going penny stocks or something than your massive speculation, or NFTs or something. I don’t know how much you get into that side of things on this show. But I think it’s actually much less risky with similar or more upside to just leverage the market than to unleveraged to not leverage, go after individual stocks.

Clay Finck (39:42):

I think Warren Buffett would be shaking his head right now.

Evan Carmichael (39:45):

I love the conversation. I haven’t… Show me the calculations. You can design a portfolio where you never get a margin call, assume minus 20% in the markets for three years in a row, assume that, which has never happened, right? I mean, at least in [inaudible 00:39:58] never happened. Great. You can design your portfolio that X percent on margin, you would never get a margin call. So where’s the risk? Versus buying a single stock like Facebook, which I own, or Meta that then tanks in one day, or Zuck dies or something and the whole thing goes away, right? I mean, those are real risks. I hate that dude. I have zero debt. I have, I guess real estate debt. But in my business, zero debt. So I don’t like this strategy. It makes me anxious, but I don’t understand that I see zero risk.

Clay Finck (40:26):

I get where you’re coming from for sure. I mean, especially with the higher inflation we have. If inflation persists, then that is a definitely winning scenario. Assuming inflation doesn’t end up hurting the stock market.

Evan Carmichael (40:37):

Well, and if you take out a loan to buy more of the index as an investment through an investment company, you can write off the interest. You’re getting tax deductions too to do it.

Clay Finck (40:47):

So you said the quote, your heart’s in your business, but your head’s in your wallet, what do you mean by the head and your wallet piece? Is that mean you’re just maximizing the amount of dollars that you have, maximizing the returns you can get? What do you mean by that?

Evan Carmichael (41:02):

Yeah. Basically it’s like, I’m safe with my investments, which then my accountants always say: Well, why are you taking on? Why would you want to go into debt? Because it’s safe. This just makes sense. You’re going to make a lot more money doing it. And the markets never dropped 20% a year for three years, right? And when I say that it’s more, this came up a lot in a discussion with life insurance and taking out that against the life insurance. Real estate is what a lot of people will put their money into. I’m not a fan of real estate. Just in general, I don’t like it. But if it makes sense, I’ll do it. Show me how it’s better. If I’m all in, right? I don’t want to manage any… I don’t want to have to pick a property.

Evan Carmichael (41:34):

I don’t want to manage it. I don’t want to find tenants. I don’t want to do any work, right? If I buy the index, I’m doing zero work. So I wanted to be as hands off as just buying an index. And I don’t care about liquidity. I’m going to hold forever, right? Buy, Borrow, Die. So just hold forever and then borrow against it. So I don’t care about liquidity. That’s a knock against real estate, right? You can’t get out of the house as easy as you can just sell the index, fine. But if somebody came and showed me and I put this to my financial team too, show me if real estate is better. And even though I personally am not a fan, I would much rather own XIC.

Evan Carmichael (42:07):

I’d much rather own the index. I’d much rather own Amazon. It’s a much better store than I just own the boring ETF and I leverage it. And there it goes, right? But I don’t need to get my excitement from the stock market. I don’t get my purpose from my investments. And to be able to say that I backed this company and I knew. I get enough of that in my company. That’s what I do day to day. So the bank stuff, the wallet stuff, the investment stuff, it has to work. Now I want to know what Warren Buffett would say about my leverage, the index.

Clay Finck (42:34):

I am curious, you’ve been running the channel now for call it 13 years, what’s next for Evan Carmichael?

Evan Carmichael (42:43):

I’m here on this show, man. Let’s do it. This is what’s happening. I don’t have a three year plan or 10 year plan. I think if you have a 10 year plan for yourself, you’re thinking small. I think from a financial side, you might be able to write for the numbers and that side and say: Okay, if I save X amount and keep investing and compound. And historically, it’d going to be around this. I think that’s smart financial planning. But again, that’s like head stuff, where your life is heart stuff. If you Clay tried to design your life five years ago, you wouldn’t have said you’d be here. So why do you think you know where you’re going to be in the next five years, right? You don’t. Not if you’re growing, not if you’re learning, not if you’re getting better and improving and investing in yourself.

Evan Carmichael (43:21):

And so it’s not that it’s wrong to have a five year plan. You have to be willing to jump off. If I’m making my life insurance deal, that’s until I’m a hundred. That’s crazy. I’m not thinking until I’m a hundred, but you can and that makes sense and it’s logical and practical and you should, but your life is heart. You need to be doing work that you enjoy and you love and is purposeful and it’s feeling you and you feel meaningful every day. Seeing numbers go up in your bank account will not give you meaning every day. So that’s what you can’t plan for. So what’s next for Evan Carmichael if you said on the investment side? Okay. Well, hear it. I got my life insurance. Hopefully, leverage the market. Clay’s going to tell me why Warren Buffett thinks it’s a dumb idea. Now, I might adjust. Great. That’s the plan.

Evan Carmichael (44:02):

Life and business, heart. I have no idea. I’m here. This is what I’m doing, doing this show. And the willingness to say yes to the next thing because I’m not trapped by what I said I was going to do in my three year plan three years ago. But it’s got to be big. It’s got to be towards the mission. I want to solve the world’s biggest problem. That doesn’t change. I want people to believe in themselves more. That will never change. So the next thing I do, maybe it’s not YouTube anymore, right? At some point, YouTube’s been a great run. But if Clay and I are doing this in 10 years, we’re going to be in each other’s living rooms or something. We’re going to be in our VR headset, a hologram world, or whatever, right? And so it’s not being so attached. If my X year goal was to have X number of subscribers on YouTube, I think that’s a silly goal because three years in, maybe I’m supposed to be jumping off of YouTube and starting a company with Clay changing the world in VR.

Clay Finck (44:48):

Yeah. You’re always ready to hop on that next opportunity and continue to adapt to continue to fulfill that mission.

Evan Carmichael (44:56):

But that’s terrible financial planning, right? Oh, Bitcoin’s here. So let me just put all my money in Bitcoin, right? You have to know trends and you have to have a solid plan. If you’re looking at this as your life, you need this money for the rest of your life, you’re creating the plan for yourself, then you have to have more long term forecasting. And you can do that to a high degree in the finance role. You can’t do it in entrepreneurship in life.

Clay Finck (45:20):

Evan, before I let you go, I wanted to give you a chance to give a handoff to our audience. So they know where they can go to get connected with you. Where can they go to find you?

Evan Carmichael (45:31):

I’m Evan Carmichael, pretty much anywhere. We talked a lot about my YouTube channel so that’s probably the easiest spot. Go watch the 2015 Warren Buffett investment advice video. That helped Clay get started on his journey. That’s probably a good one. Maybe we linked that up in the show notes. Yeah. I mean, I’m on every platform basically, Evan Carmichael.

Clay Finck (45:50):

Awesome. Thank you so much, Evan. I really appreciate it. And it was a great time chatting with you.

Evan Carmichael (45:55):

Appreciate you, man. Take care.

Clay Finck (45:57):

All right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Please go ahead and follow us on your favorite podcast app so you can get these episodes delivered automatically. And if you haven’t already done so, be sure to check out our website, theinvestorspodcast.com. There you’ll find all of our episodes, some educational resources we have, as well as some tools you can use as an investor. And with that, we’ll see you again next time.

Outro (46:20):

Thank you for listening to TIP. Make sure to subscribe to We Study Billionaires by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Every Wednesday, we teach you about Bitcoin, and every Saturday we study billionaires and the financial markets. To access our show notes, transcripts or courses, go to theinvestorspodcast.com. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decision, consult a professional. This show is copyrighted by The Investor’s Podcast Network. Written permission must be granted before syndication or rebroadcasting.