Robert Leonard (00:02:34):
Our last episode together was episode 49. And before that, we talked about, on episode 22, for anyone that’s interested in checking those out. But in our last episode, we talked about, you’re working on this property or this project that was like commercial house hacking and you were doing it with a liquor store. So give us a quick rundown on what you had going on with that, for those who didn’t hear the previous episode, and give us an update on where you’re at now.

Ashley Kehr (00:02:58):
So I purchased a four-unit commercial building for $20,000 and it sat vacant for years, and I ended up gutting and rehabbing three units. One unit, it was a residential unit and had a tenant in place that wants to stay there forever. So we did plumbing updates for her and a couple of small cosmetic updates. So we really didn’t touch that unit much. And then we fully gutted and rehabbed the other residential unit and then rehabbed the two commercial units downstairs. Right now the property is fully rented. We have the two residential upstairs, and then we have a small clothing boutique that rents one of the commercial spaces. And then in the other space, I put in a liquor store.

Ashley Kehr (00:03:41):
So what really drew me to this building, was that in this town, there was no liquor store. So there was the opportunity to put a liquor store in there, which is something I’ve wanted to do for several years now. And so the liquor store opened up in November of 2020. And so we’ve been open almost a year now. And with this property, I loved it because it’s a mixed-use property and I’m getting several revenue streams from it. So I’m getting residential rent, rental income, I’m getting commercial rental income. And then I’m also getting business revenue from the business that’s operating in it.

Robert Leonard (00:04:20):
How’s the liquor store doing? I remember at first it was, I don’t want to say overwhelming. We got a lot going on. You hadn’t really had to deal with payroll before, because that’s not really a big issue a lot of times in these smaller real estate deals you’ve done. So how is everything going with the actual liquor store business itself?

Ashley Kehr (00:04:35):
Well, starting up was very overwhelming, and getting it going. And I have a partner on this and he actually owns a couple of Subway franchises, and he has a supervisor that oversees these Subway franchises. And so we pulled her on and we’re like, “We need your help with this because we know nothing about the day-to-day operations of a business.” Even my partner, he relies so much on the supervisor. We brought her in and that was amazing. I mean, just her setting up the POS system or doing our first inventory order. And then we actually found a manager. We looked at hiring somebody who had experience in managing a liquor store. And that’s very hard to find. It’s not like there’s a ton of liquor stores out there and people looking for jobs to be managers of liquor stores that have experience. So what we did, we started looking at bars and restaurants of people who had experience managing a bar, doing the orders for the inventory for the bar.

Ashley Kehr (00:05:32):
And we found someone local that had worked in several of the restaurants in the area, had experienced being managers for those restaurants. And she is actually working for us as a manager and then also for a restaurant right down the road from the liquor store. So it’s working out well, but having her expertise of just knowing what wines are, what liquor is, has been really great. And then just having her handle and manage the employees. So if there’s, an employee calls in and they can’t come in that day, she takes care of it. We don’t have to deal with any of that. And that was the biggest thing I wanted was, I did not want to get the phone call like, “Hey, Ashley, you have to work in the liquor store today because the girl called off work.” I did not want that at all. And so having the supervisor and manager has worked out great, they do an awesome job together and it really makes it stress-free and very hands-off for me and my business partner.

Robert Leonard (00:06:33):
Eventually, once your kids are a little bit older, you’ll be able to just send them down and make them work in the liquor store.

Ashley Kehr (00:06:38):
Yeah. [inaudible 00:06:39] already could use their help stocking shelves and things like that.

Robert Leonard (00:06:44):
Yeah, absolutely. Once you got through those initial startup hurdles, how has it been in terms of profitability? I’m not sure if you had any expectations, but if you did, how has it compared to your expectations, and how does the profitability of a liquor store, an actual business, like a retail store compared to that of say, other types of real estate? We’re not getting into the rental income itself, but just the actual liquor store, how does that compare to rental properties and real estate?

Ashley Kehr (00:07:10):
So it’s not as profitable as I thought it was going to be in the first year. We’ve had more startup expenses than I imagined. So first of all, we are ready to expand, we’ve outgrown our space. So we’re converting a garage that’s next to it, into more storage for inventory. And we started off just being a regular liquor store and then quickly we realized we needed to pivot and incorporate like a [inaudible 00:07:39] liquor store where we’re having a lot of local wineries and distilleries be a main part of our inventory. But to do that, we had to expand to the garage. So that’s what we’re working on now and putting money into building up that garage. Another hurdle we overcame was that the big huge front window was putting too much direct sunlight on the wine. So we recently just had to switch that window out with one that will block the sun rays.

Ashley Kehr (00:08:09):
And so we went into this thinking like, we’ve completely rehabbed this unit. This is great. It’s ready to go. And all these little things are coming up that we didn’t realize for having a liquor store. The difference with having a retail business compared to a real estate investing business is really the customer base. So I saw this a lot when I worked for the other investor who brought me up into the investing world. He owned, still owns auto dealerships, and then he had all of his rental property. And if there was an issue with a tenant, he firmly believed that it would affect the car sales. He didn’t want to be a slumlord. He didn’t want to be bad-mouthed. He didn’t want to have a bad name in the community because that would affect his auto sales and his auto business. And that came first and that was a priority.

Ashley Kehr (00:09:00):
And I watched how there were things that were… A tenant would demand these certain things. And he would sometimes comply with it just because he didn’t want them to bad-mouth him around town. And so I’m seeing like I’m preparing myself for that, if that does come up, how will I handle that? Because I have a lot of investments in this little town, the liquor store is there and I don’t… I mean, if someone starts to bad-mouth me because of something with their rental unit, it will spread through wildfires. It’s a little tiny town. So I think that’s a thing that I’ve had to really be conscious of, of how each business will reflect upon each other.

Robert Leonard (00:09:45):
That reminds me so much of a saying Warren Buffett has. And that’s what I think is interesting about the perspective of real estate that I bring. My background is in stock investing. A lot of people that listen to the show know that, but I take a lot of stock investing principles and bring it to real estate. And one of those is, Warren Buffett talks a ton about reputation and how he talks. He talks about how he’d rather lose money any day of the week. He’s fine with losing money on any deal. As long as you lose money, that’s fine. Don’t lose a shred of reputation. And he talks about that because his reputation has got him so many deals. And we’re talking in this case about not hurting existing deals, but Buffett has talked about how his reputation has led to him being able to acquire other companies at lower prices than a competitor, just because of his reputation and people wanted to work with him. And so it sounds like this guy, this businessman investor has taken a similar philosophy and it’s being passed down to you.

Ashley Kehr (00:10:34):
Yeah. That’s such a great point. I love that you just shared that with me. And I think there’s also that fine line too, as to you being too easy to work with where people can walk all over you too because I have seen that side of it too. So that’s something where I’m trying to balance so that I don’t get into that position either.

Robert Leonard (00:10:57):
How has this made you think about diversification? Have you considered like, maybe I have too much in this one little area because of… I mean, this could be one of the examples. There could be a bunch of different reasons, but has it made you think about maybe expanding to other markets even more than you already have, if you have?

Ashley Kehr (00:11:12):
Yeah. So right now I’m just in the Buffalo area, the south towns of Buffalo, all of my real estate is there, but definitely, the liquor store was a large reason or a reason for me to start with, to diversify my portfolio there. I mean, he has a liquor store too, he has auto dealerships, he has an insurance agency, all these different businesses. And then he has commercial property, residential property. And what I’ve watched over the years is him pull money or equity from one business and maybe put it towards a remodel on another business or used it to purchase another business. That was where I saw the real value in having multiple streams of income. So even if one stream is not doing well, you can still rely on the other ones. And that was like with my commercial building too. So if all of a sudden, nobody wants retail on a main street anymore, it’s just dead, I still have the residential units to support the commercial and vice versa. No one wants to rent in this town anymore, I still have the commercial units. So that was definitely a big factor of me wanting to diversify.

Robert Leonard (00:12:21):
Buffett also talks quite a bit about how being an investor helps him be a better businessman, and being a better businessman helps him become a better investor. And what I like about the liquor store’s story and your strategy is that you didn’t just go out and rent or lease a space for the liquor store. You said, “I’m a real estate investor. Let’s make me be a real estate investor, help me become a better business owner.” And in this case, you bought the property to do the liquor store in and whatever the profitability is on the liquor store, come five, 10 years from now, you’re going to have this property. Maybe it’s paid off. Maybe you have a ton of equity in it. And that’s probably going to be significant, especially considering what the liquor store does in profits. And so I see another parallel here between, because you’re a real estate investor, you’re also able to be a better businesswoman.

Ashley Kehr (00:13:02):
Yeah. So we had intended to charge rent to the building. So a big part of it too was shifting the income. So obviously the liquor store being a retail store, we’re going to be taxed at a higher tax bracket, where the property we’re getting a lot more tax advantages from that property and getting taxed at a lower tax bracket on that rental income. So what we’ve done is try and shift as much of that revenue to the property away from the liquor store. So for example, my partner and I both have the same ownership equity in the building and the liquor store. So the liquor store is on a triple-net lease. So the liquor store is paying the insurance. They’re paying the real estate taxes and they’re paying for any repairs or maintenance, which is going to reduce the gross income or the net income on that property or on that business. And then our income will be a little bit higher on the rental property because we’re deflecting a lot of those expenses through using a triple net lease.

Robert Leonard (00:14:05):
If someone listening to the show has seen a similar property, I know in my area I’ve seen similar properties, there’s commercial, maybe on the first floor, residential above it, but they weren’t sure maybe what residential tenants would feel, how they would feel about living above a commercial space or even near a commercial space, whatever the structure is. How have your residential tenants felt about it?

Ashley Kehr (00:14:25):
We have not had any complaints at all. I think we have very quiet businesses down below, it’s not like there’s loud music playing or it’s a bar or anything like that. So I think that definitely makes a difference, but there have been no issues at all. If anything, the girls that worked down in the liquor store can sometimes hear the one guy in his apartment talking, if he’s standing in one corner where the vent is or something, but that’s really the only issue of having them. But if anybody is thinking of starting a business, I would highly recommend looking at a property to purchase. This property, we got it for $20,000 and I probably never would have bought it if I didn’t know I was going to put a business in it because I didn’t know who would want to rent it or what to go into it. And so I took a risk on this vacant building. And so it was $20,000, we put about 70,000 of rehab into it. So all in 90,000 and ended up appraising for $220,000, so already great, there was just a huge advantage of having that much equity in it already.

Robert Leonard (00:15:27):
I think normal house hacking, residential house hacking for an individual investor is super, super powerful. And then when I heard about this idea of, I call it commercial house hacking, I don’t know if that’s the right terminology.

Ashley Kehr (00:15:38):
Let’s coin it.

Robert Leonard (00:15:39):
Yeah. We’ll coin it, commercial house hacking. So a friend of mine had told me probably a year or two ago, that his dad did this before I had ever heard of it. And he said that his dad bought an 18-unit commercial building and he ran a construction company out of it. And basically, all the other units allowed his business to have no rent. So that was great. That gave him a competitive advantage in the construction industry. And then 20 years or so went by and he was sick of the construction business. He’s like, “I just don’t want to do this anymore. It’s labor-intensive.” So he actually sold the construction business but kept the property. The property was all paid off, almost exclusively from the tenants. Now he had this commercial property that’s bringing him like $50,000 a month in pure profit. And now he just does that. And this is so amazing. I love house hacking, and the fact that you can do a commercial is awesome as well.

Ashley Kehr (00:16:24):
Thank you. Yeah. I think there’s a lot of different opportunities out there. And that’s what I love about real estate is, there’s no one set way to do it. There are so many different strategies you can use.

Robert Leonard (00:16:35):
I mean, I’m using an RV to do Airbnb short-term rentals, right? I mean, there are so many ways that you could do real estate. It’s one of the things I love about it too. Now, even though there is a lot of different ways you can do real estate, a lot of gurus say that you shouldn’t do a lot of different things. They say you should really focus and master one thing. But I know you do a few different things, commercial, you do long-term rentals, I think you do some short-term rentals, maybe some flipping. I know you do a bunch of different stuff. So how do you think about this dynamic of really focusing on one strategy versus doing a bunch of different stuff?

Ashley Kehr (00:17:06):
I think that when you’re first starting out, it’s very important to hone in and get one skillset, one strategy down in one niche. So when I started out, it was duplexes. That’s what I was buying. That’s what I was working on. I put in offers now on single-family and duplexes without even going to look at the property, just because I know what I’m looking for. I know what I want. I know what the [ARV 00:17:29] is going to be. I know what the rehab cost will be. And I know what the area is and I just have this strategy so honed down that it’s easy to me, but that also makes me bored, I guess, because it’s so easy to do that strategy for me, that I’ve looked at different things the last couple of years, and the four-unit was the first full gut rehab I have done.

Ashley Kehr (00:17:54):
And so making that transition, it was a lot of work, but I learned a lot. And then I bought a foreclosure single-family house that needed to be gutted and learned a lot on doing that rehab. And then we actually ended up flipping it and not even keeping it. So the last year, a year and a half has definitely been like a shiny object for me, chasing after different things. I started an Airbnb, doing Airbnb arbitrage. And so I think it’s really important to have focus and get that foundation built using one strategy. And then it’s okay to pivot and divert and maybe try a couple of things and then see what really interests you.

Robert Leonard (00:18:35):
A lot of podcasts seem to really just focus on wins and they don’t really talk about struggles or losses. I think there’s a lot of value in that. So I want to chat a bit about what you’re struggling with right now in your business. What is it that you’re struggling with and how are you working through those challenges?

Ashley Kehr (00:18:53):
Well, I actually have a perfect example of that because I am struggling through something right now. So I would be about six weeks ago, I put an offer in on a self-storage facility. So it’s like 36 units, self-storage, and then three commercial buildings. And one of those buildings is a mechanic repair, a service shop. So I did the offer as seller financing with a down payment. But the seller financing terms were not great. It was only amortized over 10 years, a balloon in five. So I knew that I wanted to refinance out of this property as soon as possible, but it was easier for me to get into it, doing the seller financing, putting a smaller down payment. So I got it under contract and I started my due diligence and the original contract set a two-week due diligence. So I did a phase one.

Ashley Kehr (00:19:41):
Well, when that phase one was happening, the environmental study, the person that was doing it, the third party, when they went there, the owner was supposed to give them access to the whole property. Well, they could not get into one building. So then we had to ask for an extension because we were delayed and the environmental lady, she had to go back again. So this pushed us out like a month at this point, before we got the phase one report back. Well, then the phase one report back came and said that they recommend doing a phase two. So I did delay a little bit. I took a couple of days and like, “Okay, what should I do? Should I go forward with it?” I actually had…

Ashley Kehr (00:20:17):
I was speaking at a conference and a bunch of my real estate friends was going to be there. So I pretty much spent the whole week, I’m like, “What should I do?” And picking their brains. And if the phase two comes up that there are issues, even if they agree to remediate it, don’t go forward with the project. Heal the deal. You don’t want anything with environmental issues, walk away. So I was like, “Okay, that’s what I’m going to do.” My broker negotiated with the sellers. The sellers said, “Yes, we will pay for the phase two.” Because it was going to be 6,500 and I had already dumped $3,000 in initial phase one. And they said, “We’ll pay for the phase two if it fails. If it passes, we want Ashley to pay for it then.” Which was fine with me because that meant the deal would go through. And I was just putting money into my due diligence period and I was still getting the deal.

Ashley Kehr (00:21:04):
Well, yesterday I got an email from my attorney saying that they no longer were going to extend my due diligence period and not allow me to do a phase two. And I had to decide by Friday if I was going to put down my down payment and continue to close on the property without phase two. So I got that ultimatum. So I talked to my broker last night and he talked to the broker of the selling agent. And he said the selling agent misspoke. He never should’ve said they would pay for the phase two and then they would extend it. And so now feels like there’s something weird going on. Maybe they’re using this as an opportunity to pull out of the contract because they have another offer or something. But I have until Friday to decide.

Ashley Kehr (00:21:50):
I’m pretty sure that I won’t go forward with the deal unless they extend my due diligence period because I don’t want to purchase the property without having that all-clear from the phase two. And before I even put in my offer on this property, I talked to a bank about refinancing and made sure that I could refinance and what I needed from them. So they actually connected me with an approved third party, environmental study place or whatever, to make sure that this is all in place. So that’s what I’m struggling with right now. I know really, and I’d already dumped out three grand into this deal, and then I have to walk away from it.

Robert Leonard (00:22:30):
Is that the total amount that you have in the line, is the three grand if you back out?

Ashley Kehr (00:22:34):
Yeah. So that’s what I’ve paid for the phase one environmental study, but also my time into the deal already. I mean, I’ve done all my due diligence research on the property, going through the leases, looking at the tax records, doing all that and putting my offer in, negotiating my offer, and my broker’s time too, into the deal. I mean, if this deal dies, he gets nothing out of it.

Robert Leonard (00:22:58):
I think that you’re probably aware of this, but I would think of the sunk cost fallacy. I know it sucks to lose three grand and all the time, but for myself, if I was in that situation. And I think I can probably think about it a little bit clearer because I’m not in the situation. And I know if I was, I’d be very biased, but I would really just try to think about sunk costs. It’s like, I’ve already spent all that time. I’ve already done all… put the money into it. It is what it is. If I buy a bad deal, it doesn’t make it any better. I don’t get that money back and all that. I just lose more money and it just gets worse. And I mean, it sounds like your other real estate friends were very set on no environmental issues. So if you move forward and there is an environmental issue, you’re stuck against the one big thing they said not to do.

Ashley Kehr (00:23:37):
Right. Exactly. And then I can’t get bank financing unless I remediate it and who knows how much that would cost? And unless some reason they decide to extend my due diligence period and can do the phase two, then I will do the phase two at least probably to see and put some more money into it. But I agree with you. I would rather lose three grand than walk into a bad deal for sure.

Robert Leonard (00:24:02):
Was it not set in a contract or in writing that the seller was going to be willing to pay for the phase two study?

Ashley Kehr (00:24:09):
Yeah, that was not in the contract at all. It was just that I had a two-week due diligence period to do a phase one study, and there was nothing in the contract. So that’s something my broker and I talked about last night too, was like, okay, how would we prevent this into the future? So instead of putting in a timeline, because actually initially I asked for a four-week due diligence period, and in their counteroffer to me, they narrowed it down to two weeks. But I think going forward, the lesson learned to me was that instead of putting a set timeline, I should put a phase one, and if applicable, a phase two study will be performed based on the third party’s timeline or something like that. Because I can’t control when the phase two people can come out and do the actual study and do their site visit.

Robert Leonard (00:25:00):
You mentioned that the seller’s broker mentioned he shouldn’t have said that they would cover it and et cetera. So it sounds like that was more of like a verbal agreement that they would cover it if it failed and you would have to cover it if it passed, but it was actually never put in writing?

Ashley Kehr (00:25:12):
It was put in writing in a text message from the listing agent to my broker and then they spoke verbally over it, on the phone. And then my broker had emailed it to me and saying, “What do you think about doing this?” And that’s when I had emailed my attorney and said, “Hey, can you add this to the contract and get their attorney to agree?” So that’s why we think something happened between then and there because the sellers had told their listing agent go ahead. But it was the seller agent’s boss or the broker that actually called last night to say that, no, they weren’t going to do that anymore.

Robert Leonard (00:25:48):
So your attorney sent it to their attorney and their team to get it actually signed off on and make it finalized. Actually they pushed back and said, “Hey, we’re actually not going to do this.” Why were your real estate colleagues so against buying a property with environmental issues? Is it just because of how costly it can be and how you just really have no idea what it could entail?

Ashley Kehr (00:26:09):
One thing they mentioned to me was the chain of ownership. So even 20 years from now, if I sold that property and there are three different owners, if for some reason it wasn’t mediated correctly or that there was other environmental issues or whatever, somebody could come back on me as an owner from so long ago and I would be liable on that property. So I think the big thing, there are so many issues that can come up.

Robert Leonard (00:26:38):
This is a great example of a realization that I’ve come to over the last year or so. And that realization is that the books are great, but there’s a ton of stuff that happens in real estate when you’re actually involved in it, that isn’t covered in books. And it’s not really the fault of the author. There are so many different things that could happen. You couldn’t possibly cover everything in a book. And that’s why I actually, I created a platform called Investor Shadow. If anybody’s interested, you can check it out at investorshadow.com. But similar to the story we just talked about, what are parts of real estate that you see are often missed in books and other educational resources that actually happen in real-world real estate?

Ashley Kehr (00:27:14):
Well, I think a lot of it is someone face to face with you is going to be a lot more blunt and to the point in a matter of fact, than if you’re reading their book because you’re reading their book, they’re probably going to try and tailor it to a lot of different situations and a lot of different people without stepping on anyone. And that’s not always the case, but if you’re talking to someone face to face and telling them the situation, you’re going to get a lot better feedback and probably a lot more straightforward. So that’s why I love the networking and making those connections and being able to have those people to even just talk something out.

Ashley Kehr (00:27:53):
So a couple of things that I didn’t expect or think in real estate was, the first thing was I thought when I first purchased my property was that you had to buy cash, you had to use cash for an investment property. I had that limited mindset and I think… And obviously, I bought properties doing no money down, creative financing, seller financing, private money, so many different ways. And I think that having a limited mindset about certain things, even if you read it in a book, that it’s different that you can actually do something a different way. It’s not the same as someone telling you directly and looking at you, believing in you. Like, actually you can do it this way because with social media and everything online, sometimes it’s hard to actually believe anything in writing.

Robert Leonard (00:28:43):
We’ve talked about your struggles and some of the things that are hard in real estate, but I want to talk about the flip side now. What’s going well in your real estate business? What are you proud of that you’re succeeding at?

Ashley Kehr (00:28:53):
Well, the first thing is I started Real Estate Rookie to [inaudible 00:28:58] next deal. And it’s through BiggerPockets. And I have run it two times now, we’re in our second session, but I am so proud of the people that have joined it and taken action on it. And the emails and things that I get, they’re so inspiring to me and I feel so grateful that I get to be a part of helping these people get started in real estate because it’s really changed my life.

Ashley Kehr (00:29:23):
As far as actual real estate investing, so the self-storage facility and the… I have a mobile home park under contract too, both of those are over a quarter-million dollar deals. Oh, I’m sorry, $750,000 deals. And before that, I never purchased a house for more than $150,000. My houses, the cheapest was 17,000. The most expensive was 150,000. And I think that I’m proud of myself for making that mindset shift like I can do that. I can get that deal done. Except for the self-storage, which might fall apart. But I am very proud of myself that I’m not limiting myself to smaller deals, that I’m open to looking at different opportunities and to growing on a larger scale.

Robert Leonard (00:30:10):
And you’re doing a bunch of different types. You did the commercial and the liquor store and mobile home park now and also self-storage. I mean, I think that’s awesome. And definitely, something to be proud of. For those people that are in your boot camp or people listening to this show that have done no deals or just one or two deals, where do you see the best opportunities for new investors?

Ashley Kehr (00:30:31):
It’s definitely house hacking. So if you have the opportunity to house hack and you can live in one unit and rent out the other units, or you can rent out the other bedrooms, or you can park an RV in your driveway and live in the RV and rent out the house, because that’s still your physical mailing address, to get a nice loan on that. But I think house hacking is definitely the best way. If not, it’s starting or working with another investor and seeing what they’re working on and see if that’s a strategy you’ll actually like to do. So a lot of people say, “Oh, well, I’ll do wholesaling first because you don’t need a lot of money to get started and stuff.” But wholesaling is not always that fun. And you have to be a certain type of person to actually enjoy it. Especially if you’re going to be doing all the phone calls yourself, you’re going to be doing all the appointments yourself. You’re going to be out finding buyers and trying to sell deals. It’s a lot of work.

Ashley Kehr (00:31:24):
So I think being able to get that experience or talk with people who are doing the different strategies can really help you decide. But think about the life you want five years from now, 10 years from now, and pick the strategy that works around that. You can always pivot. You can always change it, but right now what’s something that you would enjoy too? So it’s not always what’s going to make you the most money the quickest, but what will fit into the life you want too.

Robert Leonard (00:31:52):
Outside of all of the different real estate and business adventures we’ve just been talking about, you also co-host one of BiggerPockets podcast, the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. And we haven’t talked about this yet on either of our past episodes together, but I know a lot of people are interested in learning about how they might be able to get an opportunity like that, whether it’s with BiggerPockets or here at TIP, because we’re actually hiring a new host, or a different company, whatever the situation is, something like what you or I have. How does someone go about getting a chance at an opportunity like this? How can someone really try to stand out?

Ashley Kehr (00:32:25):
I started an Instagram to talk about my real estate investing journey and I put myself out there, sharing my failures, my successes, and what I was doing to invest in real estate, but more specifically how I was doing it. So I think that made a difference was I wasn’t just like, “Oh, here, look at me. I bought another property.” I was like, “This is exactly how I bought the property. This is where I got the money from. This is how I negotiated the contract.” And doing different things like that. So I actually was on the BiggerPockets podcast before I was a host and I had been found on Instagram. And then BiggerPockets had put out an announcement just like you have, that they’re hiring. They want to start a new podcast and they’re hiring two people to co-host. And so I just submitted an application and then I went through a round of interviews, but I think that I really wanted it. And I was really determined.

Ashley Kehr (00:33:16):
And my co-host at the time, Felipe Mejia, they actually matched us up together to interview together and they were picking a set of people to come on and we were paired up together. And I mean, we practiced interviewing people constantly. We would have our friends pretend to be guests and we’d go on Zoom calls and practice interviewing them. And then we had our final interview and we had to submit an interview to them, for them to look at. And then they decided on us. But I think putting yourself out there, and social media is amazing for networking and connecting with other people. If I wouldn’t have started my Instagram account, I wouldn’t probably be here today because nobody would know who I was or what I was doing. And sometimes, yes, that can be a super nice thing, not having to deal with anyone or talk to anyone or it just living in the shadows, but then you might miss out on some opportunities.

Robert Leonard (00:34:13):
And I think there’s a lot of people that don’t realize what opportunities just having social media accounts can do for you if you’re really putting your time and effort into it. And I speak from experience because before I started this podcast, I had no social media. I didn’t have any account. I had one little small Facebook account, was only friends and family, that was it. I hated social media. And so I got lucky because Stig and Preston, mostly Stig, who founded The Investor’s Podcast, hated social media. So he wasn’t looking for somebody that had a big social media following, so that just worked out in my favor. But I’ve seen even in my own experience, now your experience and others, you get a lot of opportunities from social media. And so whether you hate social media or not, it’s a very valuable tool that you could use to build your personal brand, that can lead to opportunities. And the other piece is you’ve put in a lot of hard work to get that position. And so I think that’s a big key takeaway that a lot of people can learn is, it’s going to take a lot of hard work and you’ve got to put in a lot of work if you really want to stand out.

Ashley Kehr (00:35:05):
Yeah. And honestly, I didn’t even have that big of a following. I had started my Instagram account in June and then I was hired in December, and I maybe had a couple… maybe like 3000, maybe something. So don’t think that you won’t have an opportunity until you have a large following. If you’re putting out good content, people are going to notice, you’re going to grow quickly. But I think that if somebody is really determined, be persistent. When I went to… After I’d been on the BiggerPockets podcast, David and Brandon, I’d gone to this conference and I knew the producer of the show was going to be there. We sat and talked for a while, connect, I made sure that I talked to him at that conference. We just made that connection, that face-to-face. And I think that really helped too when I actually went to interview for the position, that we had that kind of rapport already from meeting in person. So anybody that wants to be your co-host, find out what conference you’re going to, and then stalk you at the conference.

Robert Leonard (00:35:59):
Did you know that there was a position coming when you went to talk to the producer?

Ashley Kehr (00:36:06):
No, I didn’t. I didn’t know. But I just knew that I wanted to keep that relationship with him.

Robert Leonard (00:36:13):
And that’s why I asked because that’s so valuable. You didn’t know that this position was coming, right? You just were networking and you knew by doing these things, there could be value down the line. And there’ve been so many things that I’ve done in my life over the last couple of years that I had no idea that what I’d done in the past was going to lead to what I’m doing now. And you can’t connect the dots going forward. There’s a saying, “You can’t connect the dots going forward, but you can looking back.” And it’s so true. You just have no idea what is going to lead to what opportunities. We’ve talked a bit about what new investors should do. We talked about what you’re doing in your business. We talked about what you’re doing with BiggerPockets. What are you doing next? And what is your angle?

Ashley Kehr (00:36:52):
So I struggle at this so much. So I actually figured out like a year ago, because I always struggled with my why, because my kids, yes, they’re my why, but it wasn’t big enough to me. That was way too obvious. So I came up with the word spontaneous. I just want to have a spontaneous life. I want to be able to wake up and do whatever I want. So I’ve gotten really close to having that, to getting where really the only things that I have to schedule out are podcast recordings, but I love to do that. So that’s super fun for me. I think that the next big thing is that I really need to figure out as to like, what’s my number? What’s it going to be where I’m like, “Okay, everything from this point is passive. No hands-on.” I’m getting to that big passive number where I have that income [cum 00:37:42] ventures or anything new, where I have to physically work in the business or work on the business where maybe it’s just throwing money into syndication deals or things like that.

Ashley Kehr (00:37:52):
So I actually met with James Dennard a couple of weeks ago in Seattle. Awesome guy there that’s built multiple businesses and he has a hard money business and does lending out of that. And that I’ve done a little bit of that on a really small scale working for this other investor, I’ve managed a little tiny lending company for him. And I think that really intrigues me as still, like that would be the next step for me in a couple of years is to get to that point where I’m doing some hard money loans. So that’s what intrigues me because I still get to analyze the deals and people bring them to me and I get to help people get started in real estate or continue to grow their portfolios. So I like that side of it.

Robert Leonard (00:38:36):
A similar idea to what you mentioned about being spontaneous that I just learned about this morning was, I was listening to another podcast and the host is somebody that I tend to look towards for. I don’t know him personally, but I really follow what he does online and things like that. I think he’s really a smart guy. And he talked about one of his long-term goals is designing his life so that he has this perfect Tuesday. And what he means by that, the perfect Tuesday is because Tuesday is just, it’s every other day of the week. There’s nothing special about a Tuesday. It’s not Friday. It’s not the first day of the week. There’s nothing special about Tuesday.

Ashley Kehr (00:39:09):
Hump day.

Robert Leonard (00:39:10):
Yeah. It’s not a hump day, right? It’s just Tuesday. And so he says, “What can I do? How can I design my life to make the perfect Tuesday? What can I do to make any general day, the perfect day for me so that I’m only doing the things that I want to be doing on that day?” And so that’s what I’m working on. And it sounds like you’re working on something similar.

Ashley Kehr (00:39:28):
Yeah. And one thing I really like is flexibility. So I have been traveling a lot and this past spring, I went to support a real estate investor friend who was doing a 50K ultramarathon. And a bunch of us went and the day before I was supposed to leave, a bunch of them were going to Boise, Idaho to visit my friend’s self-storage business there. And that night, me and three other people were like, “Well, we want to go too.” And we just booked it. And I went there for four days and I was like, “This is so cool that I can do that.” So I think being able to have that flexibility and that freedom is really enjoyable.

Ashley Kehr (00:40:09):
And then just, I need to get to the point where I can have a nanny that comes [inaudible 00:40:14] not for vacations or anything like that because I figure the kids do great with that, but for conferences and stuff so that when I actually have to go and speak, there’s somebody to watch them. And then the rest of the time we can go do whatever. So I’m speaking at [inaudible 00:40:28] Rosenberg’s or Orlando mastermind in October. And so my mom is coming and like, cool, I get to fly her down and she gets a little vacation and just hanging out with the kids, which she loves and then I’ll do stuff when I’m not speaking.

Robert Leonard (00:40:45):
Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s really all about designing the life that you want. It’s not about necessarily having the most money, but put the designing of the life that you want.

Ashley Kehr (00:40:53):
And I think a lot of it is managing your money too. I’m not super wealthy yet. I mean, I strive to be, but the money that I do have, I use it to reinvest to generate more money, or I do a ton of travel hacking. Like my mom’s flight was free [inaudible 00:41:11] because I had enough points and I tried to use my money towards things that I will enjoy more towards experiences than things. And our family has made that kind of mindset shift the last couple of years, too, was to focusing more on where our money is actually going and on making our money work for us, but also more of experience than things.

Robert Leonard (00:41:35):
If I had to define probably the biggest change or biggest area of growth that I’ve had over the last, I don’t know, five, six years, it’s been that mindset shift from trying to be ultra-wealthy, just like ridiculously rich to being what Ramit Sethi would call as your rich life, and designing the life you want. Because when I was growing up like 18, 19, like even early days of college, I just wanted to be filthy rich, to be completely honest. That’s all I cared about. I wanted to be a billionaire. That’s all I wanted. I was actually like… In my high school class, they have superlatives, like nicest eyes or best smile or whatever. I was voted most likely to be a billionaire. And it was just who I was.

Robert Leonard (00:42:11):
And then over the last five years or so, I’ve just really changed that. I realized that those guys don’t really have… They have a lot of money, but they don’t have a lot of time. And a lot of times they’re not necessarily doing what they want. They’re so busy doing everything else that they have to do to have that money. And so I think for me, I’d rather have a little less money or a lot less money and be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want. And so that’s been a huge shift for me. It sounds like you’ve gone through a similar shift.

Ashley Kehr (00:42:35):
Yeah. And I think when you get to that point where you can live comfortably with and still travel and do things that you want and having a lot of time, there’s actually going to be other opportunities that come to you that may generate more money because you’re open to these opportunities and you may not even have to do that much for it. Where if you were focused on the day-to-day of building this billion-dollar company, you may miss out on these other opportunities. I think that having a lot of time is not just valuable to you and your family, but I think it will open your eyes and open doors for you for all different kinds of opportunities and things like that.

Robert Leonard (00:43:17):
Have you found that living the life you want to live, the spontaneous life or just designing your life in the way you want, have you found that it’s actually more attainable, and I guess you could say cheaper, than you expect? And the reason I ask that is because, sure, it’s going to cost a lot of money, right? The things we’re talking about…travel, it’s not cheap. Not everybody can do it. I understand that. But at least for me, when I was… Like I said, when I really wanted to be rich, I wanted to be rich, not because I cared about the money, but because I wanted a lot of different things. And then I had somebody sit me down one time, do an exercise, map out everything I wanted in life. And it was a lot of money, but it was not even close to what I thought I needed. And so even for me now, I’m nowhere near wealthy in terms of what I want to be. But I’m starting to realize, even the biggest things that I want in life are not that expensive, relative to what I thought I needed. It’s so much more attainable than I thought. And I’m curious if you’ve had a similar experience.

Ashley Kehr (00:44:08):
I think that we have the same mindset on this, is where we can look at something and figure out a way to generate income off of it. So for example your RV, that’s you wanted an RV and you’re making money off of it and probably going to have it for free and never putting your own money into it. And I think that I’ve had that realization too. I’ve always wanted an RV. I’ve always wanted a boat, a super nice car. Well, all of those things, you can rent it out on Turo. You can rent it out on [Motor Home 00:44:39] on Outdoorsy. You can rent boats out on different apps too. So I think a lot of these things that people want, is you can actually make money off of them too. So it’s not even being able to afford them. It’s that a lot of times you can get these things for very little money by giving up some time with them, and who actually owns a boat and uses it every single day anyway?

Robert Leonard (00:45:05):
That is so well said. And there’s a lot of things I don’t like about being born in this generation. I often joke, “I wish I was born in like the ’50s or ’60s,” but there’s a lot of things that I do like, right? These opportunities we have today are just essentially unlimited. And I’m very thankful for those opportunities.

Ashley Kehr (00:45:21):
But I was the same as you where I thought of all these things I would want and like the expensive clothes, nice handbags. And I mean, I’ve never been a big bag person or whatever, but just the nice things and having a nice big house. And I mean, now I’m like, “Probably I will never move out of my house.” I don’t want a big house, but I would rather get three other houses across the country where I can Airbnb them when I’m not there and then go and visit them whenever I want. But also I was sitting in Las Vegas probably about a year ago and I was just contemplating my life and just thinking about how far I’ve come. Especially compared to the first time I ever went to Vegas, how was such a different experience for me?

Ashley Kehr (00:46:06):
And I was thinking… Because I remember the first time I was ever there, walking through all the shops, I’m just like, “Wow, everything is so expensive and looking at everything and how I’d love to just go through there and have a shopping screen one day,” or things like that. While I sat on this bench inside one of those malls last year, and I was just thinking like, okay, I want to treat myself, what would I buy? What should I get? It’s like just a treat for me. And I sat there and I could not think of anything that I actually really wanted inside of any of those shops. So instead I just took a boatload of money and I put it into index funds in my [inaudible 00:46:43] account. It was such a weird moment for me, that I don’t even want anything. I mean, sure, if anybody wants to buy me something super nice and expensive, go ahead. But I don’t have the desire anymore.

Robert Leonard (00:46:57):
I’ve literally gone through the exact same realization myself. It’s like, now that I can buy a lot of the things that I want, I just don’t really need to. I think it’s like, a lot of people talk about this in relationships, right? You really like somebody when you’re chasing them and then you start dating and it’s like, oh, it fades away because it’s about the chase, not actually what you have. And so for me, I think it’s the same with the stuff is, it was just the chase of being able to get those things. And now that it’s like, oh, I can actually get them. It’s like, yeah, I don’t really want them anyway. Gary V. actually talks about this a lot. He has this goal…

Robert Leonard (00:47:26):
For anybody that doesn’t know Gary, he has this goal of buying the New York Jets. And he’s very publicly talking about this for probably a decade now. And he often says like, “Listen, don’t be surprised if one day I wake up and I can actually buy the Jets and I say, I don’t want to. It’s been the journey. I’ve loved the journey of trying to get to buy the Jets. And if one day I don’t actually buy them because I decided I don’t want to anymore, then don’t be surprised.” And it’s the same concept that we’re talking about. I was talking to your co-host, Tony, before the show and I told him this, and I want to tell you the same is, this next segment of the show is called our action plan. And it was actually inspired by you guys on your show. I really like your show and you guys have a lot of different segments of the show.

Robert Leonard (00:48:06):
And here on my show, I didn’t have any segments. I just went through interview questions with the guest. That was pretty much it, but I really liked what you guys do with your show between you and Tony. And so I decided to add this segment, it’s called the action plan. And the reason I created this is because I think too many people listen to podcasts and books and things and don’t take action on anything they’re learning. They just continue to consume and consume. And I know I was one of those people and I really want people to actually take action on what they’re learning. So together we’re going to create an action plan from this episode. And the first question is, what habit or principle do you follow in your life that has had a big impact on your success, that not enough people do, but should?

Ashley Kehr (00:48:44):
I would say one thing is that I do every day is I pick at least three things that I need to get done for that day. My to-do list is never-ending, it’s forever long, and I have multiple of them. I think I have a paper one right here. I have one of my [inaudible 00:49:01]. I have all my emails to get to, but I pick at least three, depending on the day, maybe more. And if I get those things done, I feel great at the end of the day, that I accomplished those things and I knocked them off my list. And it can be something as simple as a phone call that I’ve been dreading or procrastinating and just getting it done. It just feels so much better.

Ashley Kehr (00:49:26):
Even if I only did those three things, I don’t know what it is about it, but is just making sure that I get at least a couple of things done because or else, I’ll have 50 tabs open on my computer. I’ll be having texts, Instagram messages. I’ll be doing stuff with the kids and I will feel like I get nothing done. So as long as I pick those things at the beginning of the day and I knock them off, and sometimes I’ll even time lock for them too. Like if it is a little bit longer of something, I’ll actually time block it into my calendar. So I think just for anybody just starting out, just think of what are a couple of things you could do each day to knock off your list.

Robert Leonard (00:50:05):
I do the exact same thing. Literally the exact same situation for me. My to-do list is endless, but I follow this strategy. It’s called the power list. And anybody that follows me on social knows that I talk about the power list a bit, and it’s the same idea, but it’s five things. Every day you have to do… There’s five main things you have to do. As long as you get those things done, you “win the day.” And it could be three, it could be two, it could be five, whatever your number is. That’s your first step in the action plan, is every day, if you’re listening to the show, that’s your first step is to define three to five things that you have to get done every day. And don’t let everything else on your to-do list overtake your day.

Ashley Kehr (00:50:39):
And it does not even have to be real estate specific. It could honestly be calling the doctors and setting up your child’s doctor’s appointment, anything in your day to make it a win for you.

Robert Leonard (00:50:50):
For the second action step, for someone listening to the show, is to go read a book that you’re going to recommend. And I want you to recommend your most influential book that you’ve read, and it doesn’t necessarily have to be your favorite. Because I think sometimes favorite and influential are different. So what has been your most influential book or most impactful book that you’ve read?

Ashley Kehr (00:51:08):
I’m going to say two, and you probably have one of these on your podcasts a lot, but one, the first one is The Simple Path to Wealth. I love that book because it’s just very eye-opening and it’s like, wow, it really can be that simple. And it’s not even really about real estate investing. It’s just investing in general and how it’s easy just for somebody to become wealthy or a millionaire by doing a couple of simple steps. And I’m a huge believer in having great financials and knowing how to manage your money. It’s not about how much money you have. It’s about knowing how to manage the money you do have. So I love that book.

Ashley Kehr (00:51:48):
And then the second one is Hug Your Haters by Jay Baer. So it’s actually a customer service Facebook, and it’s based a lot on social media too. So like if you have a business and you have a customer that writes a bad review on your Facebook page or things like that, how to respond to it. But overall in general, if you are dealing with people in any way, so for real estate investors, if you have tenants or if you’re wholesaling and you have buyers and sellers you’re dealing with, this book is great because it just talks about how to deal with criticism, bad feedback, people that are giving you a hard time or anything. And it’s all about killing them with kindness and how to respond and how to be proactive instead of reactive too, two different things. So I love that book, if you have to interact with people at all.

Robert Leonard (00:52:40):
So there you go, guys, that’s the second step in your action plan from this episode, go read The Simple Path to Wealth, that’s by J.L. Collins. Actually, I had J.L. Collins on the show back on episode 41. And I believe his episode’s actually coming out as a rewind episode soon. So if you hadn’t heard that yet, I definitely recommend reading the book and checking it out. And then also read the Hug Your Haters book that Ashley just mentioned. I haven’t read that book yet myself. I hadn’t even heard of it. So I’m going to go check it out. And so to round off the action plan actually, the third step is to give somebody one action item to do as soon as they’re done this episode, before they go to the next podcast, before they do anything else, one action item that can help improve their life, career or business.

Ashley Kehr (00:53:21):
I’m going to say because I’m very real estate specific. I’m going to say that to go analyze a deal. So BiggerPockets has a calculator reports where you can, even if you’re not a pro member on their website, you get like four times or something. You can use them for free. So just pull a deal off of the MLS, it can be any deal, just with the first one that pops up and then practice analyzing it. So just take the information from the MLS and plug it into the calculator. If you want to analyze it as a rental or a flip, BiggerPockets has the calculator reports for either of those. And they have a rent estimator to tell you exactly what the rent would be for that property based on the location. So that would be the first thing because once you start learning and analyzing deals and you start practicing and doing it over and over again, you’re going to get so much better at your numbers. And then as you’re practicing, verify those numbers, look at county websites to make sure that property taxes are correct, and really get into that habit of feeling very comfortable and confident of analyzing your deals.

Robert Leonard (00:54:26):
That is a great action item. And it’s actually something I did when I first got started in real estate. I forced myself to analyze five deals a day every single day for six months. And I analyzed a lot of deals and I didn’t really have an interest in analyzing, purchasing any of those. I just knew that that was a habit I needed to get into. I needed to be good at it. And so I think that’s a great action item for people to do before they get into their next podcast or the next book. Now, before we wrap up the show, I like to turn the tables and let the guest ask me a question. So what question do you have for me?

Ashley Kehr (00:54:58):
I want to know what your long-term plan is for your RV. Are you going to scale and get another one or is it just a pay this one-off? What does that look like?

Robert Leonard (00:55:09):
As of right now, my plan is to scale. And so you live not that far from me, we’ve talked about that before. I think we’re just within a couple of hours. So you have winter coming just like I do, and winter is not great for RVs. So I’m curious to see how this first one goes throughout the winter. My guess is I’ll make all of my money with the RV between April and probably October, November. And so really only eight months where I can make money, four months where I probably can’t. I think it will still be very profitable. But because we’re going into winter, my plan is not to buy any right now, but come spring, when we get into that period of when rentals are going to start to kick up again, or even towards the end of winter, if I could still get a good deal on them. Because sometimes winter is a good time to buy.

Robert Leonard (00:55:53):
I plan to buy at least one more, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I bought two, three, four or more. What I love about it is you can, a lot of times get them for zero down. So I could literally buy probably four of them with $0 out of my pocket, other than insurance and registering them. So that’s my plan. And I know this model can work because there’s actually a dealer local to me that when I got interested in this, I was looking to buy one and they just started selling them. And so I went down there, and this goes back to our conversation where you just don’t know where things can lead. I went down there, they had one I was interested in actually buying and I thought they were just a dealer selling them. I had no idea how big their rental business was.

Robert Leonard (00:56:33):
And so I get there and this older lady comes out and starts talking to me and she was awesome. And to come to find out she’s the owner and she’s owned it for like 35 years. And for 33 of those 35 years, they’ve exclusively done rentals. They literally just started selling them. And so she’s had a business that’s done RV rentals for like 33 years. And she basically gave me this huge thick packet of their entire playbook. She sat and talked with me for almost two hours just telling me everything she does. And they have probably 60 or 70 different RVs that they rent out. And she just told me that they had to buy 20 in the spring just to meet demand. And so I know it’s a model that can work and be its own business. It could be a full-scale business.

Robert Leonard (00:57:16):
And so that’s my plan is to work out the cobwebs or the kinks in the business model via these third-party platforms like RV Share and Outdoorsy. And then once I have a good grasp on how it all works, I’ll buy more and then rely less on those platforms, build my own website and platform like this other bigger RV rental business has done, and go direct to consumer and scale from there. And we’ll see, maybe go to two, three, four, five, who knows? We could talk at this point next year and maybe I own 20. And it’s funny too. One last thing I’ll add is, when I got into the RV thing like you said, I did it because I saw it as a way of RV hacking. I’m obsessed with this idea of buying things, finding a way to make money from them, and being able to use them yourself.

Robert Leonard (00:57:59):
I race Motocross, and you can go in just a pickup truck, but that’s not a great experience. Whereas if you go in an RV, it’s amazing. It’s so much better. And so I was like, “All right, I got to get an RV and what can I do to make money from it?” And that’s the only reason I did it. I didn’t think about scaling or anything like this. And I didn’t think anybody else was interested in that. I thought it was just a way that I could not have to pay a mortgage every month for this RV. I thought it was just a good solution. Come to find out, I had like three or four of my friends. They reached out to me. They’re like, “Oh my God, I’ve wanted to get into RV rentals. I’d love to buy one. Let’s go buy one together.” And now I have probably half a dozen people that want to buy them with me. And I talked to this dealership and I’m just like, “This is just a business opportunity that I had never even thought was possible.”

Ashley Kehr (00:58:41):
You got to get that wholesale rate now too.

Robert Leonard (00:58:44):
Yeah. But hey, you know what’s crazy though? It’s [that] they make sense, even if you don’t, that’s what’s cool about this, is the rates are so good that… And with $0 down, it’s an infinite cash-on-cash return. So it’s like with real estate, a lot of work goes into really getting a smoking deal on a property under value, but you don’t necessarily have to do that with an RV. And so it’s interesting. And I think that’s what’s next. I think that’s what I’m going to do. And we could talk in six months at the end of our mastermind and then my plan could be totally different. But as of right now, that’s the plan.

Ashley Kehr (00:59:15):
Well, that’s awesome. That’s really exciting for you. And I think one thing that you should add to this is that you should buy a self-storage facility so that you can put your RVs in the winter in a couple of the units and then rent out the other units and then have a paid-for self-storage facility for your RVs.

Robert Leonard (00:59:34):
Yeah. That’s a great idea. And there’s actually… Another kind of model is a lot of people pay money to store boats and cars and stuff over the winter. So I could buy this… There are so many opportunities, buy self-storage, let people store things there, have my own lot for all these RVs. So that’s a great idea. And this is just another example of how many different things you can do in real estate. When you get out there, take action. There’s just so so much opportunity out there.

Ashley Kehr (01:00:00):
So many shiny objects to [inaudible 01:00:01].

Robert Leonard (01:00:03):
Well, that’s the hard part, which shiny object to focus on. Well, Ashley, I know people are going to love this episode. I know I did, and they’re going to want to connect with you. So where is the best place to do that?

Ashley Kehr (01:00:15):
Well, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. And anyone can find me on Instagram @wealthfromrentals or listen to the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. And I’m also on BiggerPockets. I have a profile there if you search Ashley Kehr.

Robert Leonard (01:00:30):
I will put links to all Ashley’s different resources in the show notes for you guys to check out. Ashley, thanks so much for joining me.

Ashley Kehr (01:00:37):
Yeah. Thank you very much.

Robert Leonard (01:00:39):
All right guys, that’s all I had for this week’s episode of Real Estate Investing. I’ll see you again next week.

Outro (01:00:45):
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