Robert Leonard  01:21

Tell us more about your background, who you are, and how you got to where you are today.

Axel Ragnarsson  01:26

So it’s an interesting story. When I was in high school I actually bought and sold cars. I was trying to figure out how to level up and do something larger which led me to real estate. I actually started watching a lot of HGTV, figured flipping houses was the logical next step. But as I was researching real estate, I started to realize that maybe flipping houses is too time-intensive, maybe not for me. So I actually went down the path of rental property investing. I started educating myself in that field which led me to multifamily real estate and I started buying while I was in college which has led me here, three and a half years later and doing this full time.

Robert Leonard  02:03

Having started investing when you were just a sophomore in college, I can imagine that you’ve probably faced a lot of roadblocks and challenges. What were some of the biggest hurdles you faced when you got started and how did you overcome them?

Axel Ragnarsson  02:15

So the biggest hurdle, as anyone who’s young and trying to get into real estate is probably realizing, is just access to capital. Whether it’s having investors you can work with or just having your own money. When I was starting out, I realized that the most important thing I could focus on was just finding the people who had money that would be willing to work with me or that were interested in investing in real estate or lending on real estate deals. And that was certainly the biggest hurdle. That was something that I focused on even before I started looking for deals. Okay, even if I find a deal, I can’t really do much if I don’t even have anybody lined up to do the financing or to invest with me. So that was really just the first thing that I tried to figure out. How to actually get the money to participate in you know, a real estate deal. So that’s definitely the biggest hurdle I faced.

Robert Leonard  03:01

Despite those challenges, you’ve still been able to build a big business in just a short period of time. You’ve totaled over $6 million in assets. Talk to us about your strategy and why you chose the multifamily asset class.

Axel Ragnarsson  03:16

So once I found some private money lenders to work with who actually wanted to loan on deals. I then shifted my focus to which deals can I do that are actually going to produce the highest return, allow me not to sink my own cash into one deal, and then not be able to do any other deals subsequently? You know, and that kind of led me to the BRRRR strategy as it’s known now which is essentially just buying properties at a discount. In this case, multifamily properties, adding value to them, you know, whether it’s raising rents or doing some rehab, and then going ahead and refinancing them and repeating that process. So that was the strategy that I employed. And initially, I was finding smaller to the four-unit multifamilies that were below market value, buying them and then just executing on a strategy which has allowed me to snowball the cash that I started with into a larger portfolio which I have now.

Robert Leonard  04:06

What exactly is BRRR? What does that mean? What does the BRRR stand for?

Axel Ragnarsson  04:10

So essentially the B is buy, and then the R’s are rehab, rent, refinance, and then repeat. In a nutshell, it’s basically just finding discounted deals, adding value to them, and then refinancing all the cash that you had in the deal out towards the end. And it allows you to take a small amount of cash when you’re starting out and actually recycle it and create a snowball that grows larger as you do more deals. Normally, if you were to buy a property at market value and you put 25% down, that’s money that you’re putting into the deal that it’s going to take a while for you to get back. But with the BRRRR strategy, you can put that money into a deal, add value, and then actually refinance once it comes in, once it appraises at a higher number.

Robert Leonard  04:52

So on your way to building your multi-million dollar business, what mistakes did you make that the audience can learn from and how can they try to avoid those mistakes?

Axel Ragnarsson  05:01

So, certainly made a lot of mistakes. I think the biggest one or the most significant one is just focusing on a lot of the wrong stuff, initially. When I was first starting my business, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to build a website, what kind of direct mail service providers I wanted to use, which templates made a lot more sense. Trying to figure out how many LLCs I needed and all that stuff. And what I found looking back is that if I just spent all of my time finding deals and finding lenders, I would be much further along now than I actually am. I think when you start out, really the only two things that matter is just becoming very good at finding deals and then becoming very good at networking, finding partners and lenders. Managing the real estate and actually doing all of the other organizational administrative work comes second to those two things and by wide margin. So if I were to go back and start over, I would just spend all of my time becoming the best deal finder in the market. And then anytime that I wasn’t spending doing that, I would just be networking with lenders and partners.

Robert Leonard  06:03

If the audience listening today wants to begin implementing a similar strategy to yours in the same asset class, the multifamily asset class, what should they look for in properties that are potential acquisition targets?

Axel Ragnarsson  06:15

So there are a few things that I typically look for and I think a lot of the investors that execute the same strategy that I do, I mean they all look for very similar things. Namely, it’s deferred maintenance or mismanagement of the actual property. That could be evidenced by a roof that’s bad that needs to be replaced or the current owner doesn’t have the money to replace it. Or just really below market rents and tenants that aren’t paying in the manager or an owner that is fed up with managing the property. I think those two areas are where you’re going to find most of the opportunity. Deferred maintenance that maybe is just too expensive for the current owner or landlord to handle. And then just mismanagement of the asset. So basically, just you know, when the number one thing we look for is below market rents, or just really high expenses, or just poor tenant quality, in a building that has potential to have a higher tenant quality. 

So when I’m looking at a deal, those are the two most prevalent things I look for. And then there are some other ones beyond that such as the opportunity to maybe creatively finance it or do the deal in a way that makes sense outside of just doing a standard, put some money down and buy it. The most prevalent one being owner financing. You know, that’s another segment to a deal that actually makes a lot more deals make sense that otherwise wouldn’t if that wasn’t part of the options to finance it. So I think those two, the deferred maintenance and mismanagement of tenants are the significant ones and then an ability to creatively finance would be the third.

Robert Leonard  07:38

Yeah, that owner financing piece that’s so interesting. I really like that strategy. I haven’t implemented it in my real estate business yet, but we had Chad Carson from BiggerPockets on the show just a few episodes ago, and he talked a lot about seller financing. And back on Millennial Investing, we also had Gabriel Hamel on the show. He’s a big proponent of seller financing. He really likes it. So it’s one of those things that I’m really looking to implement in my business myself. So I’m excited to try that. But when you mentioned deferred maintenance, for someone that’s new getting into real estate that might be listening to the show today and doesn’t know what that means, talk to us a bit about what exactly deferred maintenance is. 

Axel Ragnarsson  08:14

So typically deferred maintenance is identified by usually, if it’s exterior, it would be the roof, maybe the landscaping, maybe the windows. Interior, it could be the standard items such as a kitchen or bathroom that is dated or is just falling apart. For example, the systems may be just old and not functioning properly such as heating systems. In general, it’s maintenance that the owner has neglected past when he should have actually taken care of it. For example, you know, typical roof in the New Hampshire market lasts 20 to 25 years. 

Oftentimes, we’ll look at properties where the roof hasn’t been done in 25 years. The shingles are peeling and now it’s starting to leak up into the top floor unit. And what we typically find is, owners don’t have the funds or may not have the funds to deal with a problem like that and that’s what puts them in a position to be a motivated seller. You know, maybe the roof cost $15,000 for replace but since the owner hasn’t raised rents in five years, and the income’s not there and the money isn’t in the bank to take care of an issue like that. So deferred maintenance usually manifests itself in the owner not having the funds to replace it and then finding themselves in a position to need to sell the building because they don’t have the money to take care of it. Or just needing to figure out a solution and how to deal with the building. 

Robert Leonard  09:25

When you talk about all these issues that the current owners are having, so they’re having issues with tenants, whether it be poor tenant quality, or below market rents, or they’re just having trouble keeping up the building, you mentioned, they might not have enough money. But what makes you different when you’re acquiring this property? What makes you confident that you’re able to take this property and turn it around and make it a successful investment when the previous landlord wasn’t able to?

Axel Ragnarsson  09:49

So oftentimes, when we find a building that has deferred maintenance or some other sign of neglect from the previous owner, where we fall in, in terms of what we’re doing differently is we’re a little bit more well-capitalized whether that’s through our partners or our lenders. So we can bring the building to a higher standard. And basically, our business model is centered around providing the best possible housing with tenants that are living in it. 

You know, you can’t provide the best possible housing if you have a leaking roof or a non-functional heating system or other, you know, issues with the building. And then for ourselves financially, you get the best return with a building that is positioned above the marketplace. So if we’re buying a building that has deferred maintenance and putting money into renovations, rents are higher, vacancies are lower, the ongoing maintenance costs are lower. And the building just makes more sense as an investment. And we’re put in a position to do that by being mindful of what the market is requiring. And then putting ourselves in a position to where we’re capitalized significantly enough to bring that building to where it needs to be.

Robert Leonard  10:46

And I mean, there really are so many reasons as to why you might be able to manage the property better than the current owner. They could be just a one time landlord. Maybe they bought this property years ago because they thought they wanted to get into real estate. They decided they didn’t like it. Maybe they inherited the property and they were kind of, you know, thrown into the fire there and they don’t really know what they’re doing. And they just have been struggling. So you can help provide a solution to them by taking over that property. So there really are so many different reasons as to why you might be able to provide a solution to a problem that the current owner’s having while also having a successful investment even though they weren’t able to themselves. We talked about where you’re investing. How can the audience go about finding a high potential market for them to purchase in? And what should they specifically be looking for in those markets?

Axel Ragnarsson  11:34

So I think the first question is what’s actually your goal? Why are you getting into real estate investing? If it’s because you want to quit your job as fast as you can and you’re probably looking for cash flow. So you want to start your search by looking at markets that produce cash flow. That’s the Midwest, the Southeast, the Southwest. I mean, those are general areas, but those are typically where the price points are such that cash flow is significant. If you’re, you know, a doctor or a lawyer making a very high W-2 income and cash flow is not going to change your life too much, maybe you want to invest closer to a major city where you have more long term equity growth but the cash flows less. And maybe that’s like around Boston or in California or something like that. You know, once you figure out what your goal is, then you can work backwards into which markets makes sense. 

And at that point, there’s all the metrics that signify a good market such as population growth or job growth, rent price to income ratios. You know, you want to make sure that the housing in the marketplace is affordable for the people that are working there. You know, making sure there’s a diverse employment. Or basically just, there’s enough employers producing enough jobs and all the jobs aren’t consolidated into one employer, for example. So those are typical metrics that a lot of real estate investors use to determine the strength of a market. And then once you’re inside that market, you know, that’s when you start to look in the neighborhoods and you can look at crime maps, school ratings, actual employers near where the properties you’re looking at are. So I think it’s important that you start with your goal and then you work backwards into, Okay, what are the healthy markets? And if you’re not tired of investing locally, that’s even better. Because then you can be picky enough to go actually find the very best market that you want to invest in.

Robert Leonard  13:07

Yeah, I think that advice about starting with your goal and working back from there is really, really good. Because I don’t think a lot of people talk about that. They just talk about finding markets that have strong cash flow, strong appreciation, have good schools, and low crime. But they don’t talk about your goals. They don’t take that into consideration. They just kind of provide a blanket statement. And to your point, starting and looking at your goals is definitely a good way to get started there. Now, when you talk about strong cash flow, and that being important, what are your cash flow requirements? What makes a deal interesting to you? What are your you know, when you see a deal and you analyze the numbers, what really gets you excited about a deal?

Axel Ragnarsson  13:46

So typically the cash flow that I’m looking for, and if I’m gonna look at it on a cash-on-cash return basis or metric, I’m looking for something that’s 12% to 15% cash-on-cash return which initially seems high and that’s typically a high number. If you did go out and look at multifamily properties really, in any market trying to find a cash-on-cash return like that is a little bit higher than what the market provides you. But the reason I look for that metric is because it’s usually signifying that I’m buying the property below market and refinancing some of my initial cash flow to get that return. 

So that’s what I typically look at as a cash-on-cash return that I’d like to see. And also riding shotgun along with that metric is just the fact that I need to get the property below market. Ideally, I’m getting it at an 80% after I put in my renovation costs. That way, I can take up most of my original investor cash. In which case, my cash-on-cash return is, you know, much higher than that 12% to 15%. But that is the absolute minimum that I would consider if I were just getting into a deal whether that’s traditionally buying by putting 25% down and taking out a loan. Or if I was going through the headache of the BRRRR process of managing a rehab and managing a hard money loan. Anything lower than that I typically don’t look at.

Robert Leonard  14:56

For those listening who may not be aware of what cash-on-cash return is, can you expect what that is and explain why when you get your capital back out of a deal through a BRRRR, why does that make your cash-on-cash return skyrocket?

Axel Ragnarsson  15:10

So cash-on-cash return is basically just the amount of cash flow you’re receiving based on the amount of cash you initially invested in the deal. So if you do invest $25,000, you know, you put 25% down on $100,000 building, and you will receive $2,500 a year in cash flow, that means your cash-on-cash return is 10%. Now, the power of the BRRRR strategy is if you actually buy the property at below market value, do some renovations, and now you find yourself all in with your costs at 80% of the market value, and let’s say bank is willing to give you 80% loan to value on that same property. You’ve built equity beyond what you’ve paid and what you’ve put in. So now you already have that 20% equity and so at that point, the bank’s basically allowing you to own the building with a loan without putting any of your own money in. And if that happens, then you’re getting invested is 0%. In which case, if you’re looking at a technically your cash-on-cash return is infinite on whenever you’re making. The goal is, to basically have, to create equity through buying below market or you know, adding value through raising rents or doing a rehab or something like that. So that the cash you actually have invested at the end of the day is significantly lower than what you’d have to put in if you were to just buy it at market value. Which means your cash-on-cash return can be 100%, 200%, or even larger than that. Because the amount of money that you actually have invested in the deal at the end of the day is so low.

Robert Leonard  16:31

Yeah, that’s exactly why that strategy is so powerful. And not only does it make your returns significantly higher, but it also gives you all that capital back that you can deploy into another property. So now when you don’t BRRR, if you put that money into a deal, it just sits there and you can’t leverage that into another deal. But if you get your money back through a BRRRR deal, you’re able to put that into another deal and then another deal and another deal, and you’re able to leverage that money multiple times over which makes your returns even bigger. You mentioned, you’re looking for cash-on-cash return of 15%. But I’ve heard a lot of investors talk about how they’re looking for a specific cash flow per door. How do you look at that? What if your cash flow was very strong on a per door basis? So maybe you’re getting $200, $250 per door, which seems to be a very strong return for a lot of investors. But maybe your cash-on-cash is low because it was really expensive property. How do you manage that dynamic between cash-on-cash return versus cash flow per door?

Axel Ragnarsson  17:29

So the way I balance the two is, first and foremost, I look at the cash-on-cash return as a percentage because it’s a more true indicator of what you’re actually earning on your money. I mean, just as you explained, right, if you pay $100,000 for a building and you pay all cash but you’re only getting $100 a month in cash flow, right, that’s a much less desirable investment than one that you maybe have $10,000 and where you’re spending that same hundred dollars a month. You know, your cash on cash return is entirely different in those two scenarios. 

You know, with that being said, I still value the actual number of cash or there just a nominal amount of cash flow per door because it’s a good indicator of whether or not the investment’s really worth my time to just own and manage. So typically what I’m looking for is $200 per door, after, you know, the building is stabilized, and I’ve refinanced it with a lender. That’s what’s standing in my market, at least for people executing the strategy that I am. You know, if I were in a more high growth, equity market, maybe that number would be lower, and I’d be happy with that number because getting the equity increase. But for the market that I’m in, I think that’s a good metric for me to strive for. Especially, you know, after including professional management and management and vacancies and everything like that. $200 per doors typically enough for it to be worth just doing the deal.

Robert Leonard  18:43

And a lot of times they go hand in hand, right? If you have strong cash flow per door, a lot of times that translates into a strong cash-on-cash return. So they’re not always mutually exclusive. But it is an interesting dynamic that a lot of investors find themselves trying to decide between. Do you use any other  return metrics? Do you look at IRR? Because I know a lot of real estate investors look at that. Do you consider the equity pay down or the principal pay down that you’re getting from your tenants? How about the tax benefits, anything like that, any other metrics that you use to calculate your returns?

Axel Ragnarsson  19:13

When I’m doing deals in the market that I’m doing deals and that I know really well, I typically focus on cash flow and cash-on-cash return above metrics like IRR, or just nominal amounts like equity pay down and basically the other benefits of investing in real estate. While those certainly matter, my first and foremost priority is the actual cash-on-cash return because I’m still in a position where I’m prioritizing cash flow above equity pay down and just long term appreciation. But that being said, obviously those are great benefits of investing in real estate. 

And you know, I just think that in my personal position, I obviously understand that those benefits are there and that they’ll take care of themselves from focusing on cash while I’m focusing on cash-on-cash returns. But actual appreciation and equity pay downs, I know I’m getting those benefits. I’m not something that I’m consistently tracking. You know, as I bring on partners and do larger deals, I think that those metrics will become more important because investors are more interested in their total return, right, than just their cash-on-cash return or what the cash flow is that they’d be getting paid on an annual basis. So as you do larger deals, and you’re bringing investors, I think it’s important to have a good handle on those metrics. But as for the position that I’m in right now in my own business, I’m prioritizing cash flow above those.

Robert Leonard  20:31

So we’ve talked about finding great properties, what to look for in properties, and then also what types of markets to invest in. So now let’s dive into that piece you talked about with the biggest hurdle you faced when you were originally getting started? How should a newer investor go about structuring their business so that they’re ready to start acquiring properties? Do they have to first register legal business entity such as an LLC with their state, or can they do it in just their personal names?

Axel Ragnarsson  20:58

I would suggest that before you start getting into LLCs, and business structure, and all of that other stuff that I’m going to lovingly refer to as just the fluffy stuff right now, I think you really need to focus on networking with lenders, networking with people in your business, going to RIA meetings and finding people with money that may want to partner. Finding hard money lenders, finding private money lenders, finding the people that are actually going to help you do deals because when you’re first starting out, like the LLC is secondary to just doing a deal. 

You know, the first few properties I bought, I bought on my own name. You know, most of the investors I know, the first few properties they bought were in their personal name. And you know, if they weren’t, the LLC part of the equation came after they already had a deal under contract and they were on their way to closing. So I would say that I would remove the focus, you know, of getting your business structure set up and just take all of that time and put it into becoming an expert at finding deals and becoming the best networker in your area and just meeting everyone that wants to do deals, has done deals, and has money to help you do deals.

Robert Leonard  22:03

Yeah. And that happens with not just real estate, right? Because people who are maybe starting a startup or a side hustle, they oftentimes waste a ton of time working on business cards or website or things that really aren’t gonna push their business forward. Whereas they could be focusing on really actually selling product or in this case of real estate, acquiring properties or finding people to partner with. Those things that are actually going to really push their business forward rather than focusing on those things that really aren’t gonna have a material impact. But if somebody is going to keep the property in their personal name rather than in LLC, how do they protect themselves from the potential liabilities that come along with having rental properties and tenants living in your properties?

Axel Ragnarsson  22:46

So it’s funny that we were just talking about how LLCs are not the focus when you start out because they’re actually a great way to diminish your liability. Unfortunately, what I found is that, a lot of lenders won’t give you 30-year fixed rate loans on small two to four unit properties if they’re owned in an LLC. And that if you own it in your own personal name, it’s just a lot easier to get loans. And it’s not to say that some lenders won’t do it, but it’s just a lot easier when they’re in your own personal name, you know. And as for protecting yourself if that is the case, the best strategy is to just get yourself a really, really good insurance policy that includes a liability umbrella. All my buildings have a $2 million liability umbrella that kind of hover over them. So, you know, God forbid, there is an issue where I’m getting sued, I have that layer to protect me. 

And then outside of that, just be a really good manager, right? Make sure that your buildings are safe. Make sure that you’re taking care of them. Make sure that you’re providing a building for your tenants to live in that, you know, reduces the amount of potential liability that may come back to haunt you, you know. In New England, get out there and salt your stairways. Make sure your decks are safe and you know, do your best to make sure that actual liability doesn’t come back to get you. But in the event that it does, make sure you have a really good insurance policy to help you out with that. And then as your business grows and progresses, that’s when you start to incorporate, you know, LLCs and trust, and all the other fancy ways to protect yourself.

Robert Leonard  24:09

Yeah, I can speak to that too. I’ve actually called many, many banks probably almost 100 for the last deal I was looking at. I was looking to purchase it in an LLC because I wanted the protection that entity provides for you without having to buy the insurance policy. But what you’ll find, as Axel said is that very, very, very few banks will actually lend to an LLC on residential properties which is less than four units. And the reason for that is because banks are generally lending on agency debt. Which means they’re using the government programs to offer those loans. So they’re using Fannie and Freddie Mac to provide their loans. And when they make those loans, they then sell those loans to the government entities. And if they don’t conform to their guidelines, they then can’t sell those loans and get those loans off their books. So it’s very important for the banks to not provide loans to LLCs if they want to be able to sell that debt at a later date. So, in general, it is really really difficult to get a LLC alone on a residential four-unit or less property. Now it can be done you have to find a local small credit union or portfolio lender, which means that they’re lending their own money, their own cash rather than selling that debt to agency debt or using government programs. So it can be done. It’s just definitely a lot more difficult. So now diving a bit deeper into acquiring properties in this market right now, which is late December 2019, I know many investors are worried that the real estate market might be reaching its peak and is due for a correction. How do you see the current market conditions?

Axel Ragnarsson  25:43

So it’s definitely a concern. I mean, the market is high right now. You know, in most markets across the country, multifamily prices have never been higher, literally in the history of that asset class. For me, the way that I’m avoiding that risk or maybe not avoiding but trying to mitigate it is understanding that properties I buy today, I need to have a long time horizon on. You know, if my business model includes buying a property today, adding value and selling it in three years, well, you know, I might find myself in a tough spot. But if I’m okay with owning the property for 10 plus, that allows me that cushion of time to weather any downturn and get my way out on the end or make it out on the other side. I would say that there are a lot of benefits to still buying at this point in the real estate market. And I think that they’re outside of being financial.

Axel Ragnarsson  26:31

You know, while we don’t know when the real estate market’s going to crash, you know, may go up another two years, in which case it doesn’t make financial sense to buy right now. I think there is reasons outside of that to keep buying real estate such as the fact that it builds your reputational basis in the market that you’re investing in. Now, if you’re still buying property right now, the people in your market will continue to look at you as someone who’s active in the real estate space, which does matter when the market does crash, whenever that may be or whenever it corrects. And also just helps you learn more, right? 

And that’s something that I look at right now is buying property right now. Although I’m, you know, slowing down in my business and trying to do so a little bit more sensibly. I still think that the value of doing more deals, meeting more people, and just learning more about the real estate market, I think those intangible kinds of benefits or those intangible returns from investing in real estate matter just as much as the financial ones for me. So, so long as you’re being sensible about your business right now and not, you know, trying to buy a lot of property with high interest hard money that you may need to sell in a couple of years, rather than hold on to for the next 10 to 15 years or whatever time horizon you feel is the right amount to weather a downturn. I think it still makes sense to do so

Robert Leonard  27:47

Yeah. And to your point, you’re not flipping properties, right? You’re not buying a property today hoping that the market’s going to stay strong over the next three or six months while you renovate the property and then go to try and sell it where the bottom of the market could fall-out and then there’s no buyers for your property. When you’re buying rentals, there definitely is still concern about the market going down. But if you’ve done your due diligence, you bought the property right, as long as you’re making cash flow, you’re able to sustain that property through the downturn. And in reality, the value of the property doesn’t really matter, right? I mean, your property if it’s $100,000 and it declines 20% in value which is really large in the real estate space, it doesn’t really matter because you’re still getting in your cash flow which is what matters. So as long as you can sustain your property in that cash flow throughout the downturn, you can actually be in a better place once you’ve come out of the downturn. So what are you doing to prepare for the inevitable downturn? We don’t know when it’s coming, but we know that it will be coming. So are you doing anything in your business to really get ready, prepare, and just be in a position where you’re able to just take full advantage of the potential downturn that’s coming?

Axel Ragnarsson  28:51

I am doing a few things and the big three are one: being sure that I have money in the bank and reserves to handle. You know, maybe tenants leaving, heating system going, and then also having a slight reduction in rents and property values. Having money in the bank is the greatest solution to any issue with the market. Number two is: not doing a lot of projects at the same time, or I have hard money loans on. You know, part of the BRRRR process is typically using some kind of higher interest loan on the front end of the deal. And that’s how you typically beat out other investors using a hard money loan and having cash terms on the purchase. You know, if I do three or four of those deals right now with hard money loans, that’s when I start to get a little worried about. The market potentially correcting and then me having high interest loans with shorter terms on deals that I need to refinance or need to sell. So I’m just slowing down in the number of deals I’m doing with that kind of debt. And then three: is just buying properties that are just cash cows. You know, right now I’m not taking chances on maybe lower cash flow properties and slightly, you know, nicer areas where I’m looking at the equity growth as the reason for investing in them. I’m really just buying in properties that have a high renter demands that’ll continue to produce cash flow no matter what the market is doing. So you know, money in the bank, making sure that I’m buying cash flow properties, and then just not doing too many projects at the same time with really high payments on the debt.

Robert Leonard  30:19

Yeah, your point about having the reserves and just being well capitalized that you mentioned earlier, that’s so important as well, I didn’t mention that. But that is so important. And I think if you’re going to be buying any deals right now, when you’re underwriting that deal, which just means when you’re analyzing it, I think it’s super important to include a conservative estimate for reserves. If something goes wrong, you want to be prepared by having those reserves set aside. And by being well-capitalized and having that cash set aside, you’re going to be able to make it better through the downturn. It’s the people that are going into a deal by the skin of their teeth without having those reserves set aside to fix any issues that come up. Those are the people that are going to run into an issue. 

But if you go into a deal with enough fat on the deal that you’re able to weather something that goes wrong, weather the PD economy, the real estate market, your local market, or even the property itself, a tenant leaving or vacancy, that’s going to put you in a much better position for if and when the real estate market does crash. So let’s talk more about how you’re funding your deals. I think a lot of people listening, you’re gonna get a lot of value out of that. Because like you mentioned, that’s probably the hardest part. I know for me, that’s probably one of the things that I’m still trying to learn the most about. That’s one of the things I’m still trying to master the most. I’m trying to find those partners to work with. So talk to us about how you’re funding your deals. And then, talk to us about the partnership structure with your outside investors. What does that look like?

Axel Ragnarsson  31:35

 I mean, you’re right, this is the biggest hurdle for any new investor who’s younger, maybe doesn’t have money in the bank. Or even older and doesn’t have money in the bank. And then for those who want to scale and start doing more deals, you need to find the money. And you know, I’d like to think that that’s something that I’ve become pretty good at. It’s being able to find the money and find the people who want to work with me in order to do deals. So the main to, basically, individuals or lenders that I work with if they’re more corporate are just private lenders and hard money lenders. The basic distinction being private lenders are usually just high net worth individuals that loan on specific deals. And you know, it’s a more casual relationship. The terms are more negotiable. And they can do deals a little bit more creatively. 

And then hard money lenders are typically, you know, corporate entities, actually, private equity funds that do lending specifically for real estate. You know, hard money lenders are typically easier to find and that’s what I’ve used to do a lot of the business that I’ve done. And if you just do something as simple as googling hard money lenders and then your market, probably going to get some results. There’s a lot of hard money lenders that do lending nationally as well. You know, they just might be a little bit more expensive to work with. You know, the easier they are to find, the more expensive they are but they do exist. And, you know, right now in the real estate market, money is very easy to find. It’s the deals that are hard to find. So you can find the money pretty easily. At least as it relates to hard money lenders. Private money lenders, the ones that are going to charge you a little bit less and be more flexible to work with are harder to find. But again, that’s just a function of going to every single real estate meetup in your area. And just talking to the successful investors. Talking to people that are doing a lot of deals. Just ask them who they work with, for lenders. Oftentimes, you know, they’re working with someone’s got enough money to loan you both money. They don’t really care. 

So you know, that’s how I found a couple of my private money lenders. It’s just by asking people who lends to them, who lends on their deals. Ad then just meeting the wealthy people in the marketplace that want to be in real estate. Oftentimes, you’ll find people go to real estate meetups because they want to, you know, invest in real estate on the side and they have a really high income producing job or they run a business that takes up most of their time. You know, just in a casual conversation you can steer them away from. You know, I’m looking to buy a rental property for a couple hundred grand but you know, I just want to make 10% of my money. I can’t get it in the stock market and I figured real estate’s a good place to go. You know, steer that conversation to why don’t you lend me the money at 10%, rather than going through the headaches of finding the deal, closing the deal, managing the deal, finding people to manage it for you, then managing the manager. So it’s really just a function of how many wealthy people you talk to on the private investor side. And on the hard money side, a lot of these companies are easy to find. You just have to search for him.

Robert Leonard  33:19

So much good information in there that I really want to dive into. So let’s start by talking about building those relationships. You didn’t come from a super wealthy family. You don’t have aunts and uncles and parents that are just throwing millions of dollars at you to help you build this real estate business. You went out there, you worked your butt off, you network, and you built these relationships from the ground. How are you doing your networking?

Axel Ragnarsson  34:40

I mean, it’s mainly just getting out there and talking to the people that are doing the deals. You know, I did my first deal when I was 21. But I started getting interested in real estate when I just turned 19. So it was two years, you know, almost two and a half years since I was almost 22 by the time I bought my first deal. It’s just a matter of time and just having enough conversations with people that are doing what you want to be doing. You know, there’s an investor in my local market that owns thousands of units, runs a property management company that manages thousands of units which is just absolutely successful and every metric. And I just got in touch with them as early as I could in my investing career. I just asked them for advice. I asked them where’s your go to for money. I asked them who the best people to speak with are when you’re starting out. And then I asked them, you know, bounce the strategies off of him that I wanted to, you know, employ. 

What I found was and the piece of advice that I’ve gotten from everyone I’ve talked to that’s been in real estate for a long time is, there is nothing more valuable than a robust network of people that are doing what you’re doing in your market. You know, they’re the ones that provide you all the referrals to everyone that you need to know. Whether it’s contractors, or agents, or property managers, or you know, lenders as we were just talking about. So for me, it’s just maintaining a very consistent focus on continually meeting new people that are doing real estate or want to be doing real estate in my market. You know, I try and meet two new people a week whether it’s in person or over the phone in my market. And you know, if they’re people that are doing deals great. You know, that’s going to help me and help them out. So I would say it just needs to become a priority. It’s easy to get bogged down, you know, reading a ton of real estate books or listening to a ton of podcasts. Which is great because it provides you the knowledge that you need to excel once you have the deals and once you start talking to the people that you need to be meeting. But the focus from day one has to be to meet as many people in your market as you possibly can.

Robert Leonard  36:26

Yeah, they do say that your network is equal to your net worth, right? Are you going to RIA events which are your Real Estate Association events that are often put on in every state or even some larger cities? Are you going to those types of events? Are you going to other private, maybe networking events, meetup events? Is that how you’re meeting these people other than just cold calling them?

Axel Ragnarsson  36:50

I’ve maintained my focus pretty much on RIA events. There’s definitely value in going to these more general networking events, for sure. For myself, I found just the amount of RIA events I can go to is enough to keep me busy, so to speak. I would say if I had more time, and you know, I knew of more entrepreneurial focused general meetups, I would probably go to them. But for now, my time is a little too tight to get to as many as I’d like to which is counterintuitive because I still think that’s the most important use of my time. Running investors’ time is just meeting people. But for now, I typically keep it confined to RIA meetings. And you know, I had this original perception of real estate meetups like who’s going to help you there, everyone’s fighting over deals, and everyone’s focusing on their own business. And you know, what value is there in meeting investors you’re competing with? I couldn’t have been more wrong about just the nature of a RIA meeting. 

Axel Ragnarsson  37:42

Usually you’re meeting people that are wholesaling deals or agents who are just finding deals and want to work with qualified investors. And you actually find a lot of partners to help you find deals. And then like I was saying, that’s where you find the lenders. I didn’t realize that until I started regularly going to them. The lenders that you’re going to typically work with here, you’re going to meet through networking. And I found them through RIA meeting events. And you know, a lot of the other people that I work with on a regular basis such as just contractors, or property managers, or insurance brokers, I met them all just by going to these. And you know, there’s plenty of ways to meet these people. And you know, if you’re investing out-of-state, and you can’t go to them locally, then just try and find Facebook groups. Or try and find LinkedIn groups. Or try and find one very, very successful property manager or agent or lender in that market and then ask that person for referrals to people that you need to know. Because the people that are doing a ton of the business are going to know other people doing just a lot of business. And that’s how I’ve built my network organically over the years.

Robert Leonard  38:41

I think you’re on point about going to these meetups and seeing people that you’re competing with. I think that’s so important to talk about because I think a lot of investors have that mindset. I know I did. When I went to my first meetup, that was exactly what I thought. I thought I was going to this event. And I thought I was just going to be seeing a bunch of people that I was going to be trying to fight for the next deal or fight for the next private money lender. And that’s just to your point, that’s just wasn’t the case, right? A lot of times, there are older, more successful investors that are going to these events. They’ve already achieved financial freedom. And they’re happy to help. 

They’re happy to share their information. They’re closer to retirement. They love helping younger investors that are just getting started. I found that in the real estate space, there are a lot of really great people that are very willing to help you if you’re just getting started. They’re very happy to, if you show you’re putting in the effort. You’re showing, you’re putting in the time and you’re willing to learn. I’ve found that a lot of people in the real estate space specifically at RIA meetings, or just regular private real estate meetups, they’re more than happy to help. A few minutes ago, you talked about when you’re getting private money, you are offering potentially up to 10%. How are you able to make your deals work with a 10% interest rate? And the reason I asked this is because I think a lot of investors that are listening to this show right now who maybe haven’t done private money, where they’re just getting started, they might hear, you know, 3.5%, 4%, 4.5% on a conventional loan. And so when they hear 10%, they might be a little shocked by that and wonder how you could ever make a deal happen at that high of a rate. So how are you making deals work at this rate?

Axel Ragnarsson  40:10

The way it works is, I typically model out the deals when I’m going to buy. And I know I’m going to be buying with hard money by just including it in my projections as I would, you know, rehab budget. So you know, if I plan on putting 50 grand into the building and I think that’s going to take me about six months to do, then I just also factor in six months of holding costs. And that’s how I make sure the numbers work in a deal. I don’t want to be in private money or hard money for longer than six, seven months on a deal. And if I am, then I’m probably going over budget. But the way I plan for that upfront is by just figuring out what my monthly debt payment is going to be. What my monthly tax payment would be if I were to pro-rate it over the year. When my monthly insurance payment is going to be. What I think the utilities are going to be monthly as I turn the building over. And I just factor that in as a line item on my budget when I go out to buy. You know, these loans aren’t for you to use them long term, you know. They’re very much used for just getting in and getting out of a deal. So that’s typically, how I just model it out as I would on a rehab budget.

Robert Leonard  41:10

Basically, as long as your deals make sense, it doesn’t matter what the other people are making. If you are getting the deal from a wholesaler, and they’re making 25 grand or 30 grand on the deal, and your numbers still make sense, then be happy for them. Or if your private money lenders getting 10% or 12% interest on their money, be happy for them. Be happy to be able to provide that to them so you can still use their money again in the future, as long as your numbers still make sense. It’s not a zero sum game in real estate, which I think is so great. There’s multiple ways for many people to win all on the same deal. So as long as the numbers make sense, it doesn’t really so much matter on what that percentage is. You mentioned social media when you were talking about networking in your market and potentially in other markets between Facebook groups, LinkedIn groups. And I know you’re pretty active on social media. So how important has your social presence been to your real estate business? Are you really getting a lot of leads from there? And is this an area where real estate investors should be focusing a lot of their time?

Axel Ragnarsson  42:06

Well, I think being active on social media hasn’t connected me with sellers who are actively looking to sell their property per se. I think it’s been very beneficial in just meeting people in my industry, whether they’re locally or nationally, or wherever they may be. So I think that there’s two ways to look at the return on using social media. For example, one might be as if you’re doing like ads, and you’re trying to find motivated sellers, or you’re just trying to connect with sellers somehow. You know, that’s one way to measure your return. And, you know, are you getting deals, are you making money from it? I think the other is, are you meeting people that are going to move the needle in your business? Which I think it certainly has for myself. 

You know, I think if you’re a real estate investor and you’re actively using Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram or you have a YouTube channel or you have a podcast or something like that, I think you’re putting yourself so significantly ahead of most other investors. You know, probably 80% I’d say that aren’t using social media because you’re just meeting that many more people. I’ve met countless people who are being active on, you know, LinkedIn or Instagram or wherever. And those people have helped me learn more about real estate, have introduced me to other people in my market that have helped me in my business. And I’m sure I’m going to work with some of them on deals in the future. If you look at the return as people you’re meeting, I think that it’s definitely worth putting time into. And if you get deals out of it, that’s just a bonus.

Robert Leonard  43:24

There’s such a qualitative perspective to social that you mentioned that you need to take into consideration. It’s not always about the instant numbers. You might not get 10 deals in the first week that you’re on social. But to your point, you can meet a lot of really great people. You and I, Axel, we connected on social. That’s how we met. You know, we’ve been good friends since. We’ve been talking about real estate ever since then. And it’s how we got on this podcast today. So you never know what you can find by just building those relationships that can start on social. And you can also provide value which shows your competency and helps you build your credibility. So maybe you don’t get the deals. Maybe you’re not finding sellers or buyers just from social. 

But when somebody goes to search for you and they see all the value that you’re providing, that you know what you’re talking about, it builds your credibility. And now when you go to reach out to somebody about something and they’ve seen your online presence, that helps you tremendously to get a deal. And that’s something that you can’t necessarily quantify with numbers. But it’s that qualitative perspective that you really need to take into consideration. That’s really important in real estate. You mentioned that you’re looking for end completing value add deals. And to me, it seems that value add has become a bit of a buzzword in the real estate industry over the past few years. Much like artificial intelligence and blockchain has in the tech space. And your company’s strategy is focusing on acquiring exactly that value add multifamily properties. So can you talk to us about how you differentiate yourself and your business in a market where increasingly more investors are looking for that same value add type deals?

Axel Ragnarsson  44:56

A lot of people certainly are looking for value add multifamily deals. And without a doubt, it makes sense because it’s such a lucrative investment strategy. I mean, what’s better than owning a building with none of your cash in it, or you know, a small amount of your cash in it. The challenge for myself and some of the partners I’ve been working with has been, like you’re saying, trying to really fight through the crowded marketplace and find these sellers who want to raise their hand and say, Hey, I’m willing to take a discount. And part of that is just really focusing on executing as good or better than the top people in our space. You know, we’ve spent a lot of time, and I’ve personally spent a lot of time really understanding where I can find value in terms of sales and marketing, more so than other people, right? I think a lot of people right now are just doing direct mail and that’s, you know, that’s it. Or they’re doing direct mail and they’re networking with brokers or they’re, you know, maybe doing both of those things and doing cold calling. 

Axel Ragnarsson  45:52

I think that in the space that I play in, which is typically small to mid size multifamily, if you’re employing a number of those strategies at the same time and touching the same seller in a number of different ways be it direct mail, through email, through text message, and then maybe through just having a persona on social media or just, you know, having a common person in two of your networks, I think that is how you can stand above the crowd and nature of the marketplace right now. It’s just bombarding your potential sellers with, you know, a number of different touch points. So that’s something that we’ve really been focusing on recently. And it’s been working pretty well. I mean, we’ve been continually generating deal flow. And granted, we’re sifting through many more leads to find a deal than we have in the last couple of years. But I think that it’s just the nature of the market right now. And you can do your best to out-execute out-negotiate, and just out-hustle everyone that’s basically competing with you. And that’s really the best that we can ask for right now. Continue looking for innovative strategies to get in front of those sellers before other people.

Robert Leonard  46:53

Have you considered doing deals that are a little bit bigger than small multifamily? So getting out of that two to four unit. And maybe going to five units or six units, maybe seven units. They’re not so much bigger in the sense, you know, they’re only four units, to six units, to seven units. So they’re not massively bigger. But once you get over that four unit hurdle, your valuation metrics change drastically, which is, in my opinion, a huge way to add value, specifically in the multifamily space. So if you’re really looking to add a lot of value, I think five, six, seven and up units are really a good place to do that because of how the properties are valued as commercial properties rather than as your four units or less as residential properties. So have you considered adding five, six, seven-unit properties to your portfolio?

Axel Ragnarsson  47:37

So we’re actually doing some commercial deals right now. You know, I’ve actually just bought a six-unit a couple weeks ago, and we just we did a five-unit before that. And right now, a lot of the marketing that we’re doing, a lot of the prospecting that we’re doing is focused on 15 plus unit buildings, you know. Because we want to continue to grow and don’t want to get stuck staying in the same three to seven, eight-unit space. But you’re right. I mean, those valuation metrics are certainly different. And typically when we’re valuating those deals, we look at them based on a price per unit and then just a cap rate–their price per unit basis and then on a cap rate. So you know, typically in a marketplace, in a small, in a subset of that market in the neighborhood, price per unit is going to be relatively constant. At least within 10% to 15%, up and down from the median. So when we’re looking at a six-unit building, we typically look at it on a price per unit basis compared to the gross income. And that’s kind of a back of the napkin screening test for us. And then at that point if it makes sense, we’ll go deeper and look at the actual financials and try and figure out what they’re getting in net income right now. And then what we could grow that number to. And that’s typically how we figure out how much value we can add. But those are the two metrics we’re looking at–the price per unit and the cap rate.

Robert Leonard  48:48

For those that may not know what a cap rate is, the cap rate is, and you can calculate the cap rate by taking your net operating income which is NOI divided by your purchase price. And that’s just a way to give you a valuation metric of the property that you’re potentially buying. It’s essentially a way to look at your return of this property without leverage. It’s your unlevered return on this property. So Axel, what is the most important piece of advice you would give someone who’s just starting in real estate investing?

Axel Ragnarsson  49:18

Network, network, and network some more after you’re done networking. I mean, it seems really obvious and it seems really cliche, but that’s just how you get ahead in real estate and in any market. And you know, using any strategy no matter what part of the industry you’re in, whether you’re an agent, an investor, a property manager, a lender, you have to network. And you have to network with people that are doing more than you are. Because they are the ones that are going to pull you up. So you know, get out there. Find the people that are doing a ton of business and copy what they’re doing. I thought I’d give a quick number two to that answer, right? It’s becoming really good at what matters and what moves the needles. But we talked about earlier being finding money and finding deals. You know, there’s a saying where if you can consistently find deals, you’ll never be broken your life. I mean, it’s so true. If you’re going to be good at anything in real estate, be good at finding deals. 

And this is especially true for those who have, maybe not a lot of money in the bank or (those who are) younger and have the time to just hustle. Figure out how you can find deals. And then find an investor in your marketplace who you can bring those deals to and who will pay you for those deals. Myself, as an investor who is, you know, busy trying to balance managing the assets, finding the deals, network and doing all these things. There is literally nothing more valuable to me than someone who has the time to go out there, pound the pavement, cold call, just hustle and find deals, and do the work that I may not have the time to do. So if you can do that and you can just go to a of couple meetings and find the people that want to buy the deals, you’re going to make a lot of money. And that’s just very black and white.

Robert Leonard  50:47

Yeah, I think that’s really good advice. Because if you can find good deals, you’ll have a place in real estate. You’ll be able to find somebody to buy them if you can’t buy them yourself. And to your point, there are investors further along like yourself, and there are investors like you in every market who have more money than they do, and access to money to buy deals than they do time to actually find the deals. So if you’re able to bring deals to these types of investors, they’re more than happy to work with you and partner with you potentially on that deal. And a lot of times, if you’re bringing a lot of value to that investor, they may even take you under their wing and teach you more than you could ever imagine. And that could be so invaluable. More than you could have even made on that deal if you had bought it yourself. So definitely keep that in mind when you’re trying to learn skills to develop as you’re getting into the real estate space. Now, we just talked about some good advice. What is some advice that you hear in the real estate space, whether it be on social or on other podcasts, maybe in books even or just on the internet in general that you hear that you don’t necessarily agree with, that you think might not be leading investors in the right direction?

Axel Ragnarsson  51:53

I mean, first of all, it’s a really good question. And I think that a piece of advice that a lot of very successful real estate investors give, they suggest that you just do a very large deal as your first deal. Or you just try and to go big initially. And I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think that if you’re someone who’s just getting started, and you know, unless you have very deep pockets, a very high tolerance for risk, and you can afford to mess up, and you have the network to really help you do a larger deal. I think that it’s only going to slow you down and that you’re going to hit analysis paralysis because the numbers are too large. And because the opportunities are just significantly less frequent to do. For example, a 20-unit deal rather than a duplex is your first deal. And I think that the experience you get and just going through the motions of doing a smaller deal, whether it’s two units, four units or something like that, is much more beneficial than just waiting for the financial return of a larger building because it’s going to take you another 6, 7, 8 months to do a larger deals because the opportunities are less frequent. And there’s much more sophisticated investors doing deals like that. So I would say you know, the first deal just try to hit a base hit. Try and get in the game. You know, it doesn’t have to be a home run. You know, the first deal I did was, I got it for slightly below market. I’ve rented terribly. And I ended up selling it for less than I should have but I learned a lot in the process. And I learned more doing that deal than I would have by reading books and listening to podcasts and wanting to do a larger one. So just do a deal. It doesn’t have to be big. I would say that’s probably the advice that I think is a little misguided.

Robert Leonard  53:22

And it’s also difficult to start up those big deals for your first deal for a few reasons. All the reasons that you mentioned but also because you just don’t have that credibility yet with the brokers and the sellers. It’s tough for you to go as a new investor and talk to brokers about buying 25, 50, a 100 units and for them to take you seriously. You have to have some sort of reputation or, you know, proof that you really understand what you’re talking about and that you can deliver in order to really get the attention of the sellers and the brokers to consider you for these types of deals. And just to further your point, the first deal is never going to make you rich. It’s more of a learning opportunity. So do something that’s not going to absolutely crush you. If you go out and you buy a multi-million dollar property with 50 units, even 25 units, that could really put you in a hard spot to get out of. Whereas, if you start with maybe a single family, even a duplex, maybe even three units, if that goes horribly wrong, you’re in a much smaller hole to dig yourself out of. And you have a less expensive but still very valuable educational opportunity that you were able to just learn from. So definitely keep that all in mind. What is one thing you know now that you wish you had known before you started investing in real estate?

Axel Ragnarsson  54:39

I think one of the biggest regrets that I have and maybe the one thing I do differently when I started is just outsourcing very quickly the stuff that I wasn’t very good at. And you know, by outsourcing, I don’t mean hiring people and, you know, bringing on employees or something like that because that’s obviously a much larger decision. But initially, I tried to do all of the property management myself. I tried to do all of the leasing myself. I got my license so that I could do, you know, basically sell my own properties and I could represent myself in the MLS. And I think there is a lot of value in finding the people that are very good at doing those specific jobs and then having them do it. At least initially. You know, I wasn’t a very good property manager. I just had a difficult time not becoming emotionally involved and really just understanding property management as a profession, as a business. So I left a lot of money on the table and lost rent, and vacancies and, you know, just all the ways you can lose money in property management, I probably lost money in every area. 

Axel Ragnarsson  55:37

So if I were to start over again, I would have brought on a very good manager sooner, you know, if not for my first deal. And I would have probably not have gotten my license to sell my own property. Maybe I would have gotten it, I’ve given the MLS. But I would have hired a really good agent to represent me. And I think that would have accelerated my learning curve because I would have learned how to do property management if I did want to do it. And I would have learned how to be a really good agent if I did want to go down that road. And it would have just allowed, if I have given me more time to focus on doing the two things that really matter, which is finding deals and finding money. Rather than learning how to be a good property manager which I was going to outsource anyways at some point. I would say just, you know, adding very qualified and very good members to my team and not trying to be those people.

Robert Leonard  56:22

On top of those things that you just mentioned, by having such a strong team around you, they also provide you with some guidance if you ever get into an emotional state when you’re trying to buy a property. I think that’s an overlooked part of having a strong team that not a lot of people talk about in the real estate space. When we talk about the stock market, a lot of people talk about how important behavior and emotion and psychology is when you’re investing in stock, but not a lot of people talk about it in real estate. And I think by having a strong team, I think that can really help with that. Because now, you can bounce ideas off your property manager or your agent.

 If they’re really talented and you’ve worked with them on past deals and you bring them a deal and they know that’s out of your realm, that’s not really the normal deal that you do, or it might be a little risky based on your risk tolerance or just something that doesn’t align with your investing philosophy, they can tell you like, hey, Axel, this isn’t a great deal. Maybe we should avoid this deal at this time. It’s not right for you. And that can be really valuable. Especially, you know, sometimes in this market where it’s really expensive, it’s hard to find deals, sometimes we get emotional, and sometimes we get wrapped up in a deal if we spent a lot of time looking at it, running numbers. So that can be a very valuable part of having a strong team that I think is sometimes overlooked in the real estate space. I think this conversation is going to provide a ton of value for the audience and help a lot of people overcome the limiting beliefs they have. Where can the audience go to connect with you and learn more about all that you have going on?

Axel Ragnarsson  57:49

I would say the best place is probably on Instagram. You can find me at @multifamilywealth on Instagram. Or you can search my name I’ll probably be one of the, ideally one of the top people that would come up if you do so. And then on my website axelrag.com A-X-E-L-R-A-G dot com. I give away some free resources on there. But Instagram’s probably the best place. So look me up on there.

Robert Leonard  58:10

I’ll be sure to put links to all the various resources that Axel I talked about throughout the conversation, as well as links and resources to connect with Axel directly. And there will also be books that are related to this topic that I think are worthwhile to read. So you can find all that information in the show notes. Axel, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Axel Ragnarsson  58:30

Yeah, thanks for having me. This was awesome.

Robert Leonard  58:32

Alright guys, that’s all I had for this week’s episode of Real Estate Investing. I’ll see you again next week.

Outro  58:39

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